AI challenge...anybody?

Anonymous_Banned275

One of the early version of word processor had a "feature" to grade the document. Something likes "used 4456 words written in 5th grade level..."
I wonder if there is modern version which could be used to grade replies to posts in technical forum likes this one.

Something like
" you have replied to x , written in kindergartner level and your reply is so far off the subject it is not worth grading"

Perhaps write it in something very modern - Basic or FORTRAN ?
Anybody?

IBTL

J.Hilk

@AnneRanch sure, feel free to do so, a good place to start is probably:

https://docs.nodebb.org/development/plugins/
and of course
https://github.com/NodeBB/NodeBB

Anonymous_Banned275

@J-Hilk said in AI challenge...anybody?:

@AnneRanch sure, feel free to do so, a good place to start is probably:

https://docs.nodebb.org/development/plugins/
and of course
https://github.com/NodeBB/NodeBB

Is is OK if I start by reading "Inmates are running the asylum"?

My favorite software development book.

Kent-Dorfman

@AnneRanch said in AI challenge...anybody?:

I wonder if there is modern version which could be used to grade replies to posts in technical forum likes this one.

What about grading the quality of the question and not just the replies? LOL

Anonymous_Banned275

@Kent-Dorfman Nope. Not original. I believe there is a forum, where "posting quality questions" is "required". Worse yet - if the post is not in proper grammar it gets promptly edited and corrected - who cares about the post subject - grammar is more important. I often wonder if AL Gore realized he not only made secretaries obsolete but created new category of self appointed English teachers. Not if that made big difference - yours truly included.

JKSH

@AnneRanch said in AI challenge...anybody?:

Worse yet - if the post is not in proper grammar it gets promptly edited and corrected

If people are only interested in fixing grammar and formatting, but not interested in answering the question, then the purpose of the forum is lost.

However, fixing grammar and formatting in itself is not a bad thing: A post that is easier to read is also easier to answer. It also benefits future users who might encounter the same problem and have the same question.

Pl45m4

... and if a forum that uses this kind of rating system would ban or block every user with a low "grade" rating (below a certain threshold) or users which haven't contributed anything meaningful... . that forum would be a sparsely populated space :))

Pl45m4

@AnneRanch said in AI challenge...anybody?:

who cares about the post subject - grammar is more important

How much effort you want to put in a reply to a question, the topic starter doesn't care much about?!
Correct... about the same, which wouldn't be very helpful at all...

If you get headache from just reading the question... why you should take your time and answer it neatly?!
(Yeah, you should because you are a nice person, but sometimes it is very hard to do so)

Anonymous_Banned275

@JKSH said in AI challenge...anybody?:

@AnneRanch said in AI challenge...anybody?:

Worse yet - if the post is not in proper grammar it gets promptly edited and corrected

If people are only interested in fixing grammar and formatting, but not interested in answering the question, then the purpose of the forum is lost.

No kidding...

However, fixing grammar and formatting in itself is not a bad thing: A post that is easier to read is also easier to answer. It also benefits future users who might encounter the same problem and have the same question.

Now we can get "serious" - assume that the primary purpose is to resolve the issue - for the original poster, right?

Then if we grade how good grammar helped to solve the issue we are no longer concentrating on solution , but on assistance to the solver.

There is a similar issue with another, often unpleasant issue to the first time poster - "include your code in quotation marks". Again - not exactly solving the problem , just making it easier to "cut and paste".

Just to make sure - this is still "beer talk" - anybody who posts code , in quotation marks , will have to pay for next round...

Chris Kawa

@AnneRanch said:

There is a similar issue with another, often unpleasant issue to the first time poster - "include your code in quotation marks". Again - not exactly solving the problem , just making it easier to "cut and paste".

If the code posted is for the purpose of demonstrating a problem I doubt there are many people wanting to copy it.
It's tough to read through sometimes a page long code in non monospace font and you can help two or more other people in the time it takes to get through that. Sure, a moderator could just edit that post, but it's a waste of time and that first time user is probably gonna do the same thing again. A friendly reminder that there's a code block feature on the forum is perfectly in order. It's not a "use code tags or else" type of message. We're here to help each other and to do that first step is to understand each other. Formatting posts, be it grammar, code blocks or just explaining your problem in detail, helps in that greatly.

Grading a post on grammar or how well the person can explain their problem should not be a thing here IMO and I don't really care what SO or other platforms do. We're not here to copy them. Having said that it's hard to help if the post is "My code doesn't run. What's the problem?" and people that are just starting often can't express themselves better. Code is not the only thing programmers struggle with. Communication is another such common problem and why not try to help with that too. Rubber duck debugging is a real thing and if you can get the person to go through their code to explain what they are trying to do they often stumble upon the solution themselves and learn a lot in the process, avoiding future problems. Using code tags is the same - it just doesn't occur to some that there is such a thing so pointing them to it is a good thing.

JKSH

@AnneRanch said in AI challenge...anybody?:

Now we can get "serious" - assume that the primary purpose is to resolve the issue - for the original poster, right?

Actually, there are 3 equally-important purposes for questions and answers in technical forum:

Resolve the issue for the original poster
Have the solution easily accessible to other users
Encourage best practices in the original poster and in other users

#1 is the most obvious purpose. However, #2 and #3 are needed too to sustain a high-quality forum, so we make sure these are not jeapordized in pursuit of #1.

There is a similar issue with another, often unpleasant issue to the first time poster - "include your code in quotation marks". Again - not exactly solving the problem , just making it easier to "cut and paste".

I understand that it's frustrating when you want a problem resolved but you are asked to go do something else instead.

But please understand that it goes both ways: It is unpleasant for a solver to dig through poorly-formatted code. It is tiring, difficult, tedious, as @Pl45m4 said.

So, when an asker formats code properly (and posts a minimal compilable example, and provides detailed descriptions, and posts error messages, and answers questions), the asker helps to achieve both #1 and #2 -- because all of these things make it easier and faster for solver(s) to produce a solution, and all of these things make it easier for other users to follow.

Then if we grade how good grammar helped to solve the issue we are no longer concentrating on solution ,

As @Chris-Kawa noted, we are not interested in teaching/fixing grammar in the Qt Forum (unless the text is incomprehensible).

Many users here aren't native English speakers and many apologize for their "bad English"; we tell them that it's fine since we can understand them.

Just to make sure - this is still "beer talk" - anybody who posts code , in quotation marks , will have to pay for next round...

Sure. No code and no quotation marks here.

What are your thoughts on what I wrote above?

Anonymous_Banned275

@JKSH said in AI challenge...anybody?:

@AnneRanch said in AI challenge...anybody?:

Now we can get "serious" - assume that the primary purpose is to resolve the issue - for the original poster, right?

Actually, there are 3 equally-important purposes for questions and answers in technical forum:

Resolve the issue for the original poster

Have the solution easily accessible to other users

Encourage best practices in the original poster and in other users

#1 is the most obvious purpose. However, #2 and #3 are needed too to sustain a high-quality forum, so we make sure these are not jeapordized in pursuit of #1.

There is a similar issue with another, often unpleasant issue to the first time poster - "include your code in quotation marks". Again - not exactly solving the problem , just making it easier to "cut and paste".

I understand that it's frustrating when you want a problem resolved but you are asked to go do something else instead.

But please understand that it goes both ways: It is unpleasant for a solver to dig through poorly-formatted code. It is tiring, difficult, tedious, as @Pl45m4 said.

So, when an asker formats code properly (and posts a minimal compilable example, and provides detailed descriptions, and posts error messages, and answers questions), the asker helps to achieve both #1 and #2 -- because all of these things make it easier and faster for solver(s) to produce a solution, and all of these things make it easier for other users to follow.

Then if we grade how good grammar helped to solve the issue we are no longer concentrating on solution ,

As @Chris-Kawa noted, we are not interested in teaching/fixing grammar in the Qt Forum (unless the text is incomprehensible).

Many users here aren't native English speakers and many apologize for their "bad English"; we tell them that it's fine since we can understand them.

Just to make sure - this is still "beer talk" - anybody who posts code , in quotation marks , will have to pay for next round...

Sure. No code and no quotation marks here.

What are your thoughts on what I wrote above?

I'll have to pass on nay "thoughts" , I am currently fighting alligators called Ubuntu. No time to " lounge " ,

JKSH

@AnneRanch said in AI challenge...anybody?:

I'll have to pass on nay "thoughts" , I am currently fighting alligators called Ubuntu. No time to " lounge " ,

This thread will still be around after you're done fighting alligators

Anonymous_Banned275

@JKSH said in AI challenge...anybody?:

@AnneRanch said in AI challenge...anybody?:

I'll have to pass on nay "thoughts" , I am currently fighting alligators called Ubuntu. No time to " lounge " ,

This thread will still be around after you're done fighting alligators

No kidding...
finally got Ubuntu 20.10 going and after instructing the ISO to "load updates" I just for the heck of it did "upgrade" to find out that I have 222 packages in need.

Anyhow, this is not the place to bitch about Ubuntu.

Also I did not intended to start discussion about how to post, however find it interesting discussion. Somehow I feel it would benefit to have a separate forum to openly preset stuff like that to the newcomers. I know there are stickies etc but if newcomer is aware of place where "how to communicate" is discussed it could be beneficial to all.

Putting people on the spot for bad communication is not a great idea.

Of course the "you can lead the horse to the water but you cannot make him drink " applies here .

And for code writing geeks - here is a corollary of the above
" real engineers don't read manuals ".

Cheers

fcarney

@AnneRanch said in AI challenge...anybody?:

" real engineers don't read manuals "

<sigh>
The internet really is a stupid place.

jsulm

@fcarney But that's true actually as you can see in this forum :-) People often don't bother to read documentation before asking questions.

JKSH

@AnneRanch said in AI challenge...anybody?:

I did not intended to start discussion about how to post, however find it interesting discussion.

The ideas and concepts behind "how to run a good forum" are interesting and complex indeed.

Somehow I feel it would benefit to have a separate forum to openly preset stuff like that to the newcomers.

By "Preset", do you mean like a "template" where users fill in labelled sections? That's a pretty good idea.

Some projects like Inkscape do this. When you start to post a new bug report, you get a template to fill out (https://gitlab.com/inkscape/inkscape/-/issues ):

<!-- Please report new issues at https://inkscape.org/report; this tracker is for staff-confirmed issues only.
     See our full bug reporting guidelines at https://inkscape.org/contribute/report-bugs/ -->

#### Steps to reproduce:
<!-- Describe what you did (step-by-step) so we can reproduce: -->

- open Inkscape
- ...

#### What happened?

...

#### What should have happened?

...

#### Inkscape Version and Operating System:

- Inkscape Version: ... <!-- (run inkscape -V or copy from Help → About Inkscape, top right) -->
- Operating System: ...
- Operating System version: ...

<!-- Example file:
Attach a sample file (or files) highlighting the issue, if appropriate. -->

I know there are stickies etc but if newcomer is aware of place where "how to communicate" is discussed it could be beneficial to all.

Plenty has already been discussed already (for example, "How to Ask Good Coding Questions That Get Great Answers": https://zellwk.com/blog/asking-questions/ )

Unfortunately, many people don't read, as @jsulm mentioned.

Putting people on the spot for bad communication is not a great idea.

How would you handle a situation where someone asks you for help but doesn't provide details when requested and doesn't put effort into trying to solve the problem?

Of course the "you can lead the horse to the water but you cannot make him drink " applies here .

Definitely.

I also strive to "teach a man to fish" instead of "give a man a fish". There is no point in me writing a solution if the asker just copies and pastes the code without understanding it.

Anonymous_Banned275

@JKSH said in AI challenge...anybody?:

@AnneRanch said in AI challenge...anybody?:

I did not intended to start discussion about how to post, however find it interesting discussion.

The ideas and concepts behind "how to run a good forum" are interesting and complex indeed.

Somehow I feel it would benefit to have a separate forum to openly preset stuff like that to the newcomers.

By "Preset", do you mean like a "template" where users fill in labelled sections? That's a pretty good idea.

Some projects like Inkscape do this. When you start to post a new bug report, you get a template to fill out (https://gitlab.com/inkscape/inkscape/-/issues ):


#### Steps to reproduce:


- open Inkscape
- ...

#### What happened?

...

#### What should have happened?

...

#### Inkscape Version and Operating System:

- Inkscape Version: ... 
- Operating System: ...
- Operating System version: ...


I know there are stickies etc but if newcomer is aware of place where "how to communicate" is discussed it could be beneficial to all.

Plenty has already been discussed already (for example, "How to Ask Good Coding Questions That Get Great Answers": https://zellwk.com/blog/asking-questions/ )

Unfortunately, many people don't read, as @jsulm mentioned.

Putting people on the spot for bad communication is not a great idea.

How would you handle a situation where someone asks you for help but doesn't provide details when requested and doesn't put effort into trying to solve the problem?

Of course the "you can lead the horse to the water but you cannot make him drink " applies here .

Definitely.

I also strive to "teach a man to fish" instead of "give a man a fish". There is no point in me writing a solution if the asker just copies and pastes the code without understanding it.

I have to disagree here- going back to

Resolve the issue for the original poster

teaching man to fish ON INTERNET is in my opinion, and I am opinionated, is NOT what education is about.

Granted - you can educate, but in bits and pieces.

This is not just opinion, but lifelong experience - I grew up with local library as a primary resource to educate myself above what schooling gave me.
Local library was later replaced with university library. Mr Al Gore invention opened yet another library and it is still up to the horse to drink.

Yes, you can teach a man to fish... then he spends hours on the boat , drinking beer and eating potato chips....

JKSH

@AnneRanch said in AI challenge...anybody?:

I have to disagree here- going back to

Resolve the issue for the original poster

I post on this forum to help people learn, not to do their homework for them.

For people who want a tailored solution but don't have time/energy to understand it properly, what they need is a hired consultant instead of a community forum.

teaching man to fish ON INTERNET is in my opinion, and I am opinionated, is NOT what education is about.

Granted - you can educate, but in bits and pieces.

This is not just opinion, but lifelong experience - I grew up with local library as a primary resource to educate myself above what schooling gave me.
Local library was later replaced with university library.

It sounds like you are agreeing with me...? When you learn from the library, you are teaching yourself to fish.

This forum is like a library for programmers. A solver/answerer is like a librarian and teacher combined -- they point askers to the relevant shelves, plus they also discuss the books' contents with the askers.

Yes, you can teach a man to fish... then he spends hours on the boat , drinking beer and eating potato chips....

Spending hours on the boat == gaining real-life fishing experience that can't be gained from the classroom.

Kent-Dorfman

Unfortunately too many posters on here are 1) looking for someone to do their homework or 2) being paid by some pointey haired boss to attempt work that is way beyond their abilities so they look online for someone to save their butt (pro-bono). I spend my time trying to figure out whether the post falls into either of those categories before commenting. Although to be honest I do have to frequently fight the urge to give them crap if I feel either of the above may be true.