Referring to other people in posts here
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[For the avoidance of doubt: this is The Lounge, say take my comments with a pinch of salt ;-) ]
I was born in the 1800s, so a touch older than many of you. I notice a couple of things in how people refer to each other in posts:
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In English some people call you
bro. I never met you, is this really a normal form of address? -
I notice in the German/French/Spanish forums that people start out with
du-this andtu-that. What happened toSie&vous?
:)
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A splendid observation, dear Sir! ;-)
I guess it all boils down to:
- keeping it simple
- keeping it friendly (
dufeels "friendlier" thanSie) - not bothering with formalities but sticking to technical matters
- for non-native speakers it's often easier to speak informally / sometimes we don't know how to speak properly
- in general the world seems to be moving away from formal language. This has been accelerated tenfold by the Internet and text messaging. Nowadays I often see informal language used even in shops and restaurants. I'm not from 1800s :D but it also feels a bit weird to me when a person I don't know greets my as if we were friends - at least in real life. On the Internet it does not bother much
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Being at least double of age when not triple age of most here I am also aware some changes in communication.
However, since studying I am used to refering to almost anybody with the German 'du'. I typically blame that part on having simply missed the 69 part respectively I prefer the American way to interact with people.
Nevertheless the term 'bro' would not really enter my part of the communication.
Living a couple of decades outside of Germany we are typically confronted with a significantly more casual communication in German than we are used to.
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@sierdzio
:)And I'm not a native German/French speaker, so obviously natives know better than I. Though I would think Goethe/Racine would turn in their graves! Tell me: when Angela Merkel comes on TV and gives the nation instructions about what she wants you to do about Covid, does she refer to you, the listener, as
Du?Being English, I notice the "bro". I'm not your "bro" when I've never met you! (And for that matter I won't be after I've met you either.) Ah well... :D
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@JonB Oh, a perfect topic to fan my procrastination up a bit!
For the right perspective, I was born in 1900s and became an adult in 1900s too. My first language used to be Polish but these days English is the one. Let's just be clear on that one - I mean a proper British English, not simplified one they speak across the Pond. I used to speak German quite a lot but that too was quite some time ago. Sadly, I don't know a single bit about French.
My purely personal (although stemming from the bits of knowledge I accumulated through out the years of being here and there) point of view: it mostly comes from cultural differences. And then language barrier. And then, and just then, people with lack of certain culture.
Example:
- in Poland it is a custom established in the second part of '90s that on the internet, except for very formal parts of it, one should address other people rather directly, in semi-informal way, but with respect. It comes from the language that had to be made fitting the purpose of quick communication and "you never know who's on the other side". In Polish, you can address people directly using "ty" ("du" in German, "you" in English) and that's ok with friends and close ones (exception apply but that's outside the scope here); then there is a formal "Pan (m)/Pani (f)" ("Sie" in German, in English it can be translated depending on the context into formal "you" or "Sir"/"Madam"). And there is nothing else. On top of that, especially compared to English, Polish way of addressing people and overall speaking is morbidly direct. A cultural thing.
- in German, if memory serves, you have "du" and "Sie". The latter seems to be very stiff, almost similar in function to "Pan/Pani" in Polish. It is my impression that German culture is, in that respect, not very different from Polish - so "du" is rather preferred way to address although - as in Polish - the whole sentence should be constructed expressing respect and politeness to the adversary(ies).
- And then comes the British way. So very different from the two above.
Conclusion:
I absolutely don't mind being addressed directly. There is a lot of users here who obviously struggle with basic English, not to mention technical terms. Or use Google Translate both ways. You can usually say from overall of their posts if they are simply stupid, offensive or insensitive to basic culture. "Bro" though, is never a good thing outside the pub or a school yard. But I am ok with "you" etc. -
@JonB said in Referring to other people in posts here:
And I'm not a native German/French speaker, so obviously natives know better than I. Though I would think Goethe/Racine would turn in their graves! Tell me: when Angela Merkel comes on TV and gives the nation instructions about what she wants you to do about Covid, does she refer to you, the listener, as Du?
Well the official German way would be to call her Frau Dr. Merkel oder Frau Kanzlerin Dr. Merkel. To call her simply Angela Merkel is already a causal form.
The other way around one has to be careful. I would consider a 'du' in a formal presentation as by Merkel's statements as inappropriate, because it seems like a clap in the face to the "minors".
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@JonB said in Referring to other people in posts here:
@artwaw said in Referring to other people in posts here:
"Bro" though, is never a good thing outside the pub or a school yard.
Thank you! :)
I agree with that one.
BTW In German it could be mistaken as a "Pro" which was meaning initially "Prolet", which is not really meant nice.
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@koahnig said in Referring to other people in posts here:
The other way around one has to be careful. I would consider a 'du' in a formal presentation as by Merkel's statements as inappropriate
That is what I was asking about. I want to know how Merkel addresses you (not the other way round) when, say, she broadcasts telling you to stay at home? I imagine she says "Sie muessen ..." and not "Du muesst ...", right? [Unless she is God... ;-)] So that's how I would address someone here. However, before we spend too long on this, of course I really accept that you native speakers know what is acceptable/desirable in Internet posts....
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@JonB said in Referring to other people in posts here:
I really accept that you native speakers know what is acceptable/desirable in Internet posts....
That is not something you should count on. It might be that while I am getting older I get more testy but I notice more and more people speaking on professional and semi-professional forums like with their pals in the pub. Or worse.
And while I am at it - what is with those people demanding help/support while they are lazy enough not to even read the documentation and thing for minute?
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@JonB
Probably we would require someone with a linguistics background for proper analysis. However, I seem to remember that Merkel is using very often "wir" including herself. I guess in English it would be the same, that puts everybody on the same level. -
@artwaw said in Referring to other people in posts here:
That is not something you should count on. It might be that while I am getting older I get more testy but I notice more and more people speaking on professional and semi-professional forums like with their pals in the pub. Or worse.
That is something with online fora resepctively with the Internet.
@artwaw said in Referring to other people in posts here:
And while I am at it - what is with those people demanding help/support while they are lazy enough not to even read the documentation and thing for minute?
If I am kind enough to care, I simply leave a link to the documentation. If in a really good mood I might spent some additional words.
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@artwaw said in Referring to other people in posts here:
@koahnig "wir": as "we" as a nation or a royal "we"?
Serious question, I don't have access to the German TV.The uniting "we". I am not old enough to remember any reference in official German with a "royal we" ;)
I can imagine though that with a form "we" as a nation it has perfect sense.
Unfortunately not known resp understood everywhere in today's world.
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@JonB said in Referring to other people in posts here:
I was born in the 1800s
WOW :-)
I hate if people, I don't even know, call me bro :-)
I don't see why we should use Sie in such forums? And I'm probably even older than you. What is the point? In the company I'm working for we do not use Sie, never.
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@koahnig said in Referring to other people in posts here:
Well the official German way would be to call her Frau Dr. Merkel oder Frau Kanzlerin Dr. Merkel. To call her simply Angela Merkel is already a causal form.
Oh, come on! She's a physicist with a thesis in chemistry, she can't deserve that level of formality, can she? :)
However, I seem to remember that Merkel is using very often "wir" including herself.
Hm, that's so nice of her. Our government officials call us "hooligans", "druggies", "unemployed scum" and alike. We call them "mafia" so at least there's some parity. :D
@JonB said in Referring to other people in posts here:
In English some people call you bro. I never met you, is this really a normal form of address?
The slang around here (east of eden that is) is to use the parasitic "копеле" (bastard) when talking with your friends, so I don't think you have too much reason for complaining, my dearest friend. ;)
On a more serious note, nobody likes the proper formal forms in almost all languages I'm aware of, just because the damn thing is in the wrong person or number, which is plural usually (for polish in questions it is singular, but 3-rd person, like in my language in some instances). That makes it sound artificially forced in everyday speech (english is too simple to make a distinction, but many other languages decline nouns and adjectives, so it's different than just "you"). Of course one should master speaking properly, and the art of insulting in formal address without uttering a single improper word, but that's just for when you're talking in official capacity (say with a government clerk/employee or w/e). The practicality, on the other hand, dictates you communicate information as fast as humanly possible, which is of course through the simpler constructs of the informal address.
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@kshegunov said in Referring to other people in posts here:
@koahnig said in Referring to other people in posts here:
Well the official German way would be to call her Frau Dr. Merkel oder Frau Kanzlerin Dr. Merkel. To call her simply Angela Merkel is already a causal form.
Oh, come on! She's a physicist with a thesis in chemistry, she can't deserve that level of formality, can she? :)
Oh, yes. In proper formal German she can. At least she holds the titles herself. In the past the titles of her spouse would have been included. At least some women ensured that the titles of their husbands were included in referencing them ;) Probably it would be Drs. for Merkel anyway, but I did not pay attention to her honorable titles.
In the Austria people would probably add a couple of more higher titles to be really polite ;)However, I seem to remember that Merkel is using very often "wir" including herself.
Hm, that's so nice of her. Our government officials call us "hooligans", "druggies", "unemployed scum" and alike. We call them "mafia" so at least there's some parity. :D
The politeness of lovable Russian culture is epic. :)
The official tone in speeches on diverse demonstrations are tending to follow that Russian tradition more and more.@JonB said in Referring to other people in posts here:
In English some people call you bro. I never met you, is this really a normal form of address?
The slang around here (east of eden that is) is to use the parasitic "копеле" (bastard) when talking with your friends, so I don't think you have too much reason for complaining, my dearest friend. ;)
Russian culture ;)
On a more serious note, nobody likes the proper formal forms in almost all languages I'm aware of, just because the damn thing is in the wrong person or number, which is plural usually (for polish in questions it is singular, but 3-rd person, like in my language in some instances). That makes it sound artificially forced in everyday speech (english is too simple to make a distinction, but many other languages decline nouns and adjectives, so it's different than just "you"). Of course one should master speaking properly, and the art of insulting in formal address without uttering a single improper word, but that's just for when you're talking in official capacity (say with a government clerk/employee or w/e). The practicality, on the other hand, dictates you communicate information as fast as humanly possible, which is of course through the simpler constructs of the informal address.
Basically it would be quite complicated to pull through all rules from different cultures. Just thinking of the rule in German that the older has to offer the casual "du" to the younger with obsation of possible ranks in society. Wondering what other rules would kick in from other parts of the world.
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@koahnig said in Referring to other people in posts here:
Oh, yes. In proper formal German she can.
I was sarcastic with a pinch of mockery for physicists/chemists (as I myself am in that former category). ;)
The politeness of lovable Russian culture is epic. :)
Think more to the south with less timezones. ;)
Wondering what other rules would kick in from other parts of the world.
As far as I can tell germanic, romance and slavic languages use mostly the second person plural for formal speech. It's clumsy nonetheless, I stand by my original claim.
