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Why is QT so expensive? 5000+ dollar a year

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  • VRoninV VRonin

    @JonB said in Why is QT so expensive? 5000+ dollar a year:

    In a word, are you saying that similar-ish licensing issues apply to that as to Qt, give or take?

    The wxwidgets license is identical to the Qt LGPL option barring one detail:

    To comply with LGPL, if you make changes to the code of Qt itself you are forced to submit that change upstream and get it integrated with the public version of Qt publish them so any 3rd party could recompile Qt with your changes. If you make a change to the code of wxwidgets you can compile against this modified version and distribute your software without the need of upstream integration.

    To remove this free-inspired restriction on Qt you need to buy a commercial license.

    Edit: thanks @SGaist

    JonBJ Offline
    JonBJ Offline
    JonB
    wrote on last edited by
    #12

    @VRonin
    Thank you. Absolutely no problem, for my part I never change any Qt code!

    So now I hope everyone does not move away from Qt because I'm happy with it... :)

    1 Reply Last reply
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    • jsulmJ jsulm

      @coders You don't have to pay anything as long as you don't violate LGPL3 license...
      "Simply put, this is how it works: In return for the value you receive from using Qt to create your application, you are expected to give back by contributing to Qt or buying Qt." - this is not something you must do. As I said - as long as LGPL3 is fine for you you do not have to contribute or pay.

      Kent-DorfmanK Offline
      Kent-DorfmanK Offline
      Kent-Dorfman
      wrote on last edited by
      #13

      @jsulm You make it sound so simple but the reality is that in the "web world" companies can passively aggressively coerce folks into paying for a commercial license or support contract simply by not making the open source easily accessible on their website. Isn't required accounts on the Qt site a step in that direction?

      1 Reply Last reply
      0
      • SGaistS Offline
        SGaistS Offline
        SGaist
        Lifetime Qt Champion
        wrote on last edited by
        #14

        @VRonin IIRC, under LGPL, you have to publish the changes you made to the framework/library so people can re-build the same version as you but it does not mean that you have to upstream them (although it would be better for everybody if for example it's a bug fix).

        @Kent-Dorfman the code itself is freely accessible on https://code.qt.io, the Qt account is currently required for the pre-built package installation.

        Interested in AI ? www.idiap.ch
        Please read the Qt Code of Conduct - https://forum.qt.io/topic/113070/qt-code-of-conduct

        Kent-DorfmanK VRoninV 2 Replies Last reply
        2
        • SGaistS SGaist

          @VRonin IIRC, under LGPL, you have to publish the changes you made to the framework/library so people can re-build the same version as you but it does not mean that you have to upstream them (although it would be better for everybody if for example it's a bug fix).

          @Kent-Dorfman the code itself is freely accessible on https://code.qt.io, the Qt account is currently required for the pre-built package installation.

          Kent-DorfmanK Offline
          Kent-DorfmanK Offline
          Kent-Dorfman
          wrote on last edited by
          #15

          @SGaist While I have no evidence in the past year or so, I recall that looking on the public Qt website a year or so ago simply caused the user to go in circles for hours without easily locating the "source code" link. That is my point about coercive behaviour of companies. They often make it difficult or impossible to find the OS source if they have something commercial to sell.

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          • SGaistS Offline
            SGaistS Offline
            SGaist
            Lifetime Qt Champion
            wrote on last edited by
            #16

            Then it's way simpler now:
            https://www.qt.io/developers -> Building Qt from GIT and there you have the links.

            Interested in AI ? www.idiap.ch
            Please read the Qt Code of Conduct - https://forum.qt.io/topic/113070/qt-code-of-conduct

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            • C coders

              @Pl45m4 ,

              That is infact the problem.

              If you make an app like Wattsapp... Or a Windows 10 ultimate Rat Killer... in the future...
              How much will you pay to QT every year?

              That's the only reason i quited QT and started at zero with CodeBlocks.
              But i have no regret so far.
              Just learning more of the std:: lib's. And trying to code more universal C++. QT was a nice learning curve, and there is lot's of info if you are a newbie.

              Pablo J. RoginaP Offline
              Pablo J. RoginaP Offline
              Pablo J. Rogina
              wrote on last edited by
              #17

              @coders said in Why is QT so expensive? 5000+ dollar a year:

              If you make an app like Wattsapp... Or a Windows 10 ultimate Rat Killer... in the future...
              How much will you pay to QT every year?

              Are you willing to buy some tools at Home Depot to build a shop or office where later on you'll earn money running your business (i.e. attorney, beauty shop, etc)?

              If the answer is yes, why you're not willing to buy some tools (Qt framework) that will allow you to earn lots of money later on ("Windows 10 ultimate Rat Killer")

              Upvote the answer(s) that helped you solve the issue
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              • SGaistS SGaist

                @VRonin IIRC, under LGPL, you have to publish the changes you made to the framework/library so people can re-build the same version as you but it does not mean that you have to upstream them (although it would be better for everybody if for example it's a bug fix).

                @Kent-Dorfman the code itself is freely accessible on https://code.qt.io, the Qt account is currently required for the pre-built package installation.

                VRoninV Offline
                VRoninV Offline
                VRonin
                wrote on last edited by
                #18

                @SGaist said in Why is QT so expensive? 5000+ dollar a year:

                you have to publish the changes you made to the framework/library so people can re-build the same version as you

                That's correct, thanks for the correction

                "La mort n'est rien, mais vivre vaincu et sans gloire, c'est mourir tous les jours"
                ~Napoleon Bonaparte

                On a crusade to banish setIndexWidget() from the holy land of Qt

                1 Reply Last reply
                0
                • S Offline
                  S Offline
                  SimonSchroeder
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #19

                  I do agree that wxWidgets' license is easier to comply with (as it is a modified LGPL). However, provided you comply with the LGPL (which basically means that you need your own copy of the Qt source code + some minor things) you can use it in your commercial projects forever for free. The Qt company is currently heavily coercing users into bying licenses, but I guess they will never sue you in court over LGPL abuse. (I guess people would know if there were any precedent for any LGPL violation (in the sense that Qt users fear) of any software.)

                  I have worked with both Qt and wxWidgets and I have to say that the two are not comparable at all. wxWidgets is really hard to learn and to use because the documentation is a lot worse than Qt's. There is no common tool for generating UIs like Qt's Designer (there are several incompatible tools which might be discontinued at any point). Also, wxWidgets directly draws on the screen whereas Qt always uses double buffering (which actually gives you more restrictions). Dynamic layouts are a lot easier with Qt.

                  We are currently converting our software from wxWidgets to Qt because Qt is more powerful. One of the other reasons is Qt stylesheets so that we can have a dark mode in our software now (and not only some distant time in the future). Our source code has become cleaner in a lot of cases because of the internal structure of Qt vs. wxWidgets.

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                  7
                  • A Offline
                    A Offline
                    Astrinus
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #20

                    @coders has decided to go with wxWidgets and it is perfectly fine. Software freedom means also being free to migrate. If one thinks Qt is not a good fit for a software, better to find a more suitable framework.
                    It is clear her/his trolling attitude (because the tone is not oriented towards a sane discussion [see a thread with a different attitude by @utcenter, while delivering the same complaints], but seems more to be "you fool guys/gals using Qt"). So what is the point to continue to argue with him/her?
                    Regarding the expensiveness, I personally think that, modulo the recent news, it has a raison d'être: it introduces a feedback cycle with a goal of spreading free software.
                    Let me elaborate:

                    • If one is willing to afford commercial license, it is clear that it plans to make way more money than the license price, so Qt employees (whose work is bought) are paid and can live, and also the community benefits from that.
                    • If one is NOT willing to pay, you have the option to foster the open source ecosystem directly (GPL) or indirectly (LGPL). If these options were not available, chance is that the enourmous and passionate Qt community would never form, and way less people on the market would know the framework (and I think, given its size, it would be way more buggy than it is).
                    • I personally think that the small business license introduced recently will be a failure (too much restrictitive for "Western" countries), mainly because it outright ignores purchasing power. If ones looks at the chart and multiplies by 30 the average gross monthly income (12 months/year * 2,5 to accomodate for taxes on business revenue (in addition to income ones) and other expenses to run business, including hardware, offices, licenses, & co.) only Eastern Europe businesses could sustain more than one developer, and most Western Europe one-person businesses would not qualify.
                    • OTOH I'm perfectly fine with trading closed-sourceness and license costs.
                    kshegunovK 1 Reply Last reply
                    5
                    • A Astrinus

                      @coders has decided to go with wxWidgets and it is perfectly fine. Software freedom means also being free to migrate. If one thinks Qt is not a good fit for a software, better to find a more suitable framework.
                      It is clear her/his trolling attitude (because the tone is not oriented towards a sane discussion [see a thread with a different attitude by @utcenter, while delivering the same complaints], but seems more to be "you fool guys/gals using Qt"). So what is the point to continue to argue with him/her?
                      Regarding the expensiveness, I personally think that, modulo the recent news, it has a raison d'être: it introduces a feedback cycle with a goal of spreading free software.
                      Let me elaborate:

                      • If one is willing to afford commercial license, it is clear that it plans to make way more money than the license price, so Qt employees (whose work is bought) are paid and can live, and also the community benefits from that.
                      • If one is NOT willing to pay, you have the option to foster the open source ecosystem directly (GPL) or indirectly (LGPL). If these options were not available, chance is that the enourmous and passionate Qt community would never form, and way less people on the market would know the framework (and I think, given its size, it would be way more buggy than it is).
                      • I personally think that the small business license introduced recently will be a failure (too much restrictitive for "Western" countries), mainly because it outright ignores purchasing power. If ones looks at the chart and multiplies by 30 the average gross monthly income (12 months/year * 2,5 to accomodate for taxes on business revenue (in addition to income ones) and other expenses to run business, including hardware, offices, licenses, & co.) only Eastern Europe businesses could sustain more than one developer, and most Western Europe one-person businesses would not qualify.
                      • OTOH I'm perfectly fine with trading closed-sourceness and license costs.
                      kshegunovK Offline
                      kshegunovK Offline
                      kshegunov
                      Moderators
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #21

                      @Astrinus said in Why is QT so expensive? 5000+ dollar a year:

                      only Eastern Europe businesses could sustain more than one developer, and most Western Europe one-person businesses would not qualify.

                      Not exactly true. Even here in the wild east that turnover is laughable for anything more than 1-2 devs.

                      Read and abide by the Qt Code of Conduct

                      A 1 Reply Last reply
                      3
                      • kshegunovK kshegunov

                        @Astrinus said in Why is QT so expensive? 5000+ dollar a year:

                        only Eastern Europe businesses could sustain more than one developer, and most Western Europe one-person businesses would not qualify.

                        Not exactly true. Even here in the wild east that turnover is laughable for anything more than 1-2 devs.

                        A Offline
                        A Offline
                        Astrinus
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #22

                        @kshegunov well, two is more than one ;-)

                        kshegunovK 1 Reply Last reply
                        0
                        • A Astrinus

                          @kshegunov well, two is more than one ;-)

                          kshegunovK Offline
                          kshegunovK Offline
                          kshegunov
                          Moderators
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #23

                          @Astrinus said in Why is QT so expensive? 5000+ dollar a year:

                          well, two is more than one

                          True enough, although even two is rather pushing it. :)

                          Read and abide by the Qt Code of Conduct

                          1 Reply Last reply
                          0
                          • F Offline
                            F Offline
                            FPChris
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #24

                            I miss the days of paying $250 or LESS for an IDE and you're good to go.

                            1 Reply Last reply
                            0
                            • Christian EhrlicherC Offline
                              Christian EhrlicherC Offline
                              Christian Ehrlicher
                              Lifetime Qt Champion
                              wrote on last edited by
                              #25

                              @FPChris said in Why is QT so expensive? 5000+ dollar a year:

                              I miss the days of paying $250 or LESS for an IDE and you're good to go.

                              You don't have to pay anything for the IDE at all. You mix up Qt (Framework library) and QtCreator (IDE) but I think you know this already since you only registered here to spam around.

                              Qt Online Installer direct download: https://download.qt.io/official_releases/online_installers/
                              Visit the Qt Academy at https://academy.qt.io/catalog

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                              2
                              • DriftwoodD Offline
                                DriftwoodD Offline
                                Driftwood
                                wrote on last edited by
                                #26

                                I realize this is an old thread, but my words are suited for it.

                                I use wxWidgets because my understanding is that if I create an application from the Qt Community Edition (no source code changed) that I, let's say, make millions from, the good folks at Qt will have their hands out for a piece of the pie, unlike wxWidgets. True?

                                JKSHJ 1 Reply Last reply
                                0
                                • SGaistS Offline
                                  SGaistS Offline
                                  SGaist
                                  Lifetime Qt Champion
                                  wrote on last edited by
                                  #27

                                  No, it's wrong.

                                  Check the licences again.

                                  Interested in AI ? www.idiap.ch
                                  Please read the Qt Code of Conduct - https://forum.qt.io/topic/113070/qt-code-of-conduct

                                  1 Reply Last reply
                                  1
                                  • DriftwoodD Driftwood

                                    I realize this is an old thread, but my words are suited for it.

                                    I use wxWidgets because my understanding is that if I create an application from the Qt Community Edition (no source code changed) that I, let's say, make millions from, the good folks at Qt will have their hands out for a piece of the pie, unlike wxWidgets. True?

                                    JKSHJ Offline
                                    JKSHJ Offline
                                    JKSH
                                    Moderators
                                    wrote on last edited by
                                    #28

                                    @Driftwood said in Why is QT so expensive? 5000+ dollar a year:

                                    my understanding is that if I create an application from the Qt Community Edition (no source code changed) that I, let's say, make millions from, the good folks at Qt will have their hands out for a piece of the pie

                                    No, the community edition is licensed under the GPL/LGPL. This is free as in "free speech" and "free beer".

                                    Qt Doc Search for browsers: forum.qt.io/topic/35616/web-browser-extension-for-improved-doc-searches

                                    Pl45m4P Kent-DorfmanK 2 Replies Last reply
                                    0
                                    • JKSHJ JKSH

                                      @Driftwood said in Why is QT so expensive? 5000+ dollar a year:

                                      my understanding is that if I create an application from the Qt Community Edition (no source code changed) that I, let's say, make millions from, the good folks at Qt will have their hands out for a piece of the pie

                                      No, the community edition is licensed under the GPL/LGPL. This is free as in "free speech" and "free beer".

                                      Pl45m4P Offline
                                      Pl45m4P Offline
                                      Pl45m4
                                      wrote on last edited by Pl45m4
                                      #29

                                      @JKSH said in Why is QT so expensive? 5000+ dollar a year:

                                      free beer

                                      Did someone mention "free beer"?! 😆

                                      Edit:
                                      To make this comment at least a bit useful:
                                      I would say "free beer" is not comparable to "free Qt". Once you got your beer, you can do whatever you like... drink it, toss it (what monster would do that?!) or mix it with other stuff ("change").
                                      under the free Qt licence, you cannot do whatever you like (in terms of "changes" to the Qt source, for example)


                                      If debugging is the process of removing software bugs, then programming must be the process of putting them in.

                                      ~E. W. Dijkstra

                                      JKSHJ 1 Reply Last reply
                                      0
                                      • JKSHJ JKSH

                                        @Driftwood said in Why is QT so expensive? 5000+ dollar a year:

                                        my understanding is that if I create an application from the Qt Community Edition (no source code changed) that I, let's say, make millions from, the good folks at Qt will have their hands out for a piece of the pie

                                        No, the community edition is licensed under the GPL/LGPL. This is free as in "free speech" and "free beer".

                                        Kent-DorfmanK Offline
                                        Kent-DorfmanK Offline
                                        Kent-Dorfman
                                        wrote on last edited by
                                        #30

                                        @JKSH said in Why is QT so expensive? 5000+ dollar a year:

                                        No, the community edition is licensed under the GPL/LGPL. This is free as in "free speech" and "free beer".

                                        The meaning of "free speech" has been seriously perverted in 21st century USA, so probably not a good example...and "free beer" usually has strings attached:

                                        • listen to my sad story and pity me
                                        • support my political candidate
                                        • I don't want to get in trouble by myself,
                                          etc.

                                        so perhaps a better analogy, due to the "strings attached" in the GPL.

                                        JKSHJ 1 Reply Last reply
                                        0
                                        • Pl45m4P Pl45m4

                                          @JKSH said in Why is QT so expensive? 5000+ dollar a year:

                                          free beer

                                          Did someone mention "free beer"?! 😆

                                          Edit:
                                          To make this comment at least a bit useful:
                                          I would say "free beer" is not comparable to "free Qt". Once you got your beer, you can do whatever you like... drink it, toss it (what monster would do that?!) or mix it with other stuff ("change").
                                          under the free Qt licence, you cannot do whatever you like (in terms of "changes" to the Qt source, for example)

                                          JKSHJ Offline
                                          JKSHJ Offline
                                          JKSH
                                          Moderators
                                          wrote on last edited by JKSH
                                          #31

                                          @Pl45m4 said in Why is QT so expensive? 5000+ dollar a year:

                                          Did someone mention "free beer"?! 😆

                                          Sure did! 🍺

                                          The under the free Qt licence, you cannot do whatever you like (in terms of "changes" to the Qt source, for example)

                                          That is the whole point of copyleft licenses -- to provide freedoms for the end-users (as opposed to the developers) of software.

                                          Traditionally, proprietary software licenses/EULAs heavily favour the developers but heavily restrict the end-users. It's like the end-users buy a car but are not allowed to tinker with it, pimp it, or even make repairs. The GPL license was created to shift the power balance from the developers to the end-users.

                                          Of course, traditional developers didn't like that so the LGPL was created as a compromise: When using a library (including Qt) under the LGPL, developers are allowed to do whatever they like with their own code; they just need to ensure that the end-users can do whatever they like with the LGPL'ed part.

                                          Once you got your beer, you can do whatever you like... drink it, toss it (what monster would do that?!) or mix it with other stuff ("change").

                                          You can certainly re-mix the Qt source code (or any other LGPL'ed source code) however you like. You just need to share your new brew's recipe with your end-users.

                                          Qt Doc Search for browsers: forum.qt.io/topic/35616/web-browser-extension-for-improved-doc-searches

                                          1 Reply Last reply
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