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Wiki Week

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  • tekojoT tekojo

    @Wieland sorry, meant that we can take that as something we figure out next week.
    Wasn't expecting you to make the list :)

    ? Offline
    ? Offline
    A Former User
    wrote on last edited by
    #9

    @tekojo Ah, ok :-) Added it to the wiki.

    1 Reply Last reply
    1
    • JKSHJ Offline
      JKSHJ Offline
      JKSH
      Moderators
      wrote on last edited by
      #10

      @Wieland: Good points on poor user experience for non-English readers. Note that some of the issues boil down to the messy organization of the English pages themselves. For example, even I (an English native speaker) find the large list of snippets to be a poor way to present items.

      (I'm not convinced that it's a good idea to encourage users to post small snippets, actually... but that's for a separate discussion)

      => On the German Wikipedia each page has a German name, e.g. the "main page" is named "Hauptseite" http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Hauptseite . On the Qt wiki it is named "Main/de". And not only doesn't the URI give a useful name to non-English speakers the big title on top of the page also says "Main/de".

      This can currently be alleviated by using {{DISPLAYTITLE:}}. See http://wiki.qt.io/Adjust_Spacing_and_Margins_between_Widgets_in_Layout/de

      Qt Doc Search for browsers: forum.qt.io/topic/35616/web-browser-extension-for-improved-doc-searches

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      0
      • ? Offline
        ? Offline
        A Former User
        wrote on last edited by
        #11

        Hi everyone,
        I will dedicate some time to improving the wiki today. I was just wondering what the exact purpose of the wiki is. I mean, one can't make changes to a system without knowing what it's actually good for. Is there any common sense about what belongs in the wiki and what doesn't?

        1 Reply Last reply
        0
        • tekojoT Offline
          tekojoT Offline
          tekojo
          wrote on last edited by
          #12

          In general the wiki in Qt has been used as a place to store knowledge. In other words, anything that isn't completely static (should be on the web pages) or documentation (should be in documentation) has been put in the wiki.

          The wiki should be a place where the community finds and stores information that changes.

          That said, the wiki suffers from outdated information, and lack of clean structure. The front page looks fairly ok, maybe too many topics in there.
          Another problem is with information that probably should not be on the wiki. We don't have a place to move things out of there. For example on the front page it says that code examples are not best placed in the wiki (I agree), but we don't have a canonical place for community snippets and examples. Maybe a github group would be the thing for that?

          I didn't help much, did I.

          ? 1 Reply Last reply
          -1
          • tekojoT tekojo

            In general the wiki in Qt has been used as a place to store knowledge. In other words, anything that isn't completely static (should be on the web pages) or documentation (should be in documentation) has been put in the wiki.

            The wiki should be a place where the community finds and stores information that changes.

            That said, the wiki suffers from outdated information, and lack of clean structure. The front page looks fairly ok, maybe too many topics in there.
            Another problem is with information that probably should not be on the wiki. We don't have a place to move things out of there. For example on the front page it says that code examples are not best placed in the wiki (I agree), but we don't have a canonical place for community snippets and examples. Maybe a github group would be the thing for that?

            I didn't help much, did I.

            ? Offline
            ? Offline
            A Former User
            wrote on last edited by
            #13

            @tekojo Thanks! To be a bit more specific: For example, the main page shows a table with Qt releases. Should this really be there?
            You said: "anything not completely static or documentation" and ideally not snippets and examples. So, what is left? Tutorial articles? Something like book chapters? Or is the wiki just the place to dump everything that has no other place? (Sorry if this is a silly question, but I don't want to invest time without knowing what the wiki should actually look like.)

            JKSHJ 1 Reply Last reply
            0
            • tekojoT Offline
              tekojoT Offline
              tekojo
              wrote on last edited by
              #14

              Not a stupid question at all.

              Maybe a good approach is that taken in fantasy/scifi worlds. There is canon (in our case documentation and project code) and things that are either not yet canonised or will not be canon, but are important. The wiki should be the place for the later. A lot of material is needed to explain Qt, and the wiki is the place for that.

              This brings in the problem of how the wiki should be organised. I like the front page for being organised around things that you might do. That is a good approach, it makes finding things simpler. However too many items on a page make it harder to read and find things.

              The release table appeared there a couple of days back. It makes sense to have one (we didn't previously). But probably it should be a page with a link to it from the main page. With the link probably under developing Qt.

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              0
              • ? A Former User

                @tekojo Thanks! To be a bit more specific: For example, the main page shows a table with Qt releases. Should this really be there?
                You said: "anything not completely static or documentation" and ideally not snippets and examples. So, what is left? Tutorial articles? Something like book chapters? Or is the wiki just the place to dump everything that has no other place? (Sorry if this is a silly question, but I don't want to invest time without knowing what the wiki should actually look like.)

                JKSHJ Offline
                JKSHJ Offline
                JKSH
                Moderators
                wrote on last edited by JKSH
                #15

                @Wieland said:

                For example, the main page shows a table with Qt releases. Should this really be there?

                @tekojo said:

                The release table appeared there a couple of days back. It makes sense to have one (we didn't previously). But probably it should be a page with a link to it from the main page. With the link probably under developing Qt.

                I added that table a few days ago, but didn't intend for the full table to be on the front page for long. (I didn't want to spend time creating an additional brief table then, and I was also being sneaky in trying to increase its visibility this way.)

                I quite like how Ubuntu has presented their release info:

                • Main page with small table: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Home
                • Detailed tables: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Releases

                Would you be willing to polish that, @Wieland?

                A lot of material is needed to explain Qt, and the wiki is the place for that.

                I was thinking about the history of Qt. There's a very nice but very brief overview at http://qt.io/qt20 -- it would be great to expand on that. It doesn't belong in official documentation (especially the parts about old versions), but would be right at home in the wiki.

                This brings in the problem of how the wiki should be organised. I like the front page for being organised around things that you might do. That is a good approach, it makes finding things simpler. However too many items on a page make it harder to read and find things.

                Agreed.

                I think the following would be helpful for the main page:

                • Make the Release Info table briefer, move the full table elsewhere (and expand it -- it's not complete yet)
                • Move less important links into their "Overview" pages to declutter the main page
                • Use boxes and icons for visual grouping (I find a long hierarchical list hard to read)

                Related to organization, we also need to overhaul the Categories system. There are too many single-member categories.

                Qt Doc Search for browsers: forum.qt.io/topic/35616/web-browser-extension-for-improved-doc-searches

                ? 2 Replies Last reply
                1
                • JKSHJ JKSH

                  @Wieland said:

                  For example, the main page shows a table with Qt releases. Should this really be there?

                  @tekojo said:

                  The release table appeared there a couple of days back. It makes sense to have one (we didn't previously). But probably it should be a page with a link to it from the main page. With the link probably under developing Qt.

                  I added that table a few days ago, but didn't intend for the full table to be on the front page for long. (I didn't want to spend time creating an additional brief table then, and I was also being sneaky in trying to increase its visibility this way.)

                  I quite like how Ubuntu has presented their release info:

                  • Main page with small table: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Home
                  • Detailed tables: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Releases

                  Would you be willing to polish that, @Wieland?

                  A lot of material is needed to explain Qt, and the wiki is the place for that.

                  I was thinking about the history of Qt. There's a very nice but very brief overview at http://qt.io/qt20 -- it would be great to expand on that. It doesn't belong in official documentation (especially the parts about old versions), but would be right at home in the wiki.

                  This brings in the problem of how the wiki should be organised. I like the front page for being organised around things that you might do. That is a good approach, it makes finding things simpler. However too many items on a page make it harder to read and find things.

                  Agreed.

                  I think the following would be helpful for the main page:

                  • Make the Release Info table briefer, move the full table elsewhere (and expand it -- it's not complete yet)
                  • Move less important links into their "Overview" pages to declutter the main page
                  • Use boxes and icons for visual grouping (I find a long hierarchical list hard to read)

                  Related to organization, we also need to overhaul the Categories system. There are too many single-member categories.

                  ? Offline
                  ? Offline
                  A Former User
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #16

                  @JKSH Valid points.

                  Would you be willing to polish that

                  Sure! :-)

                  1 Reply Last reply
                  4
                  • ? Offline
                    ? Offline
                    A Former User
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #17

                    Hello everyone,

                    I've made some changes to the main page. I haven't actually deleted anything but mostly created a handful of new pages and moved stuff there. Of course it's far from being complete but I think one can get an idea of what my intentions are. I would be happy to get some feedback from you before I go on.

                    Cheers!

                    JKSHJ 1 Reply Last reply
                    3
                    • SGaistS Offline
                      SGaistS Offline
                      SGaist
                      Lifetime Qt Champion
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #18

                      Looks good, easier to read than before

                      Interested in AI ? www.idiap.ch
                      Please read the Qt Code of Conduct - https://forum.qt.io/topic/113070/qt-code-of-conduct

                      1 Reply Last reply
                      0
                      • ? A Former User

                        Hello everyone,

                        I've made some changes to the main page. I haven't actually deleted anything but mostly created a handful of new pages and moved stuff there. Of course it's far from being complete but I think one can get an idea of what my intentions are. I would be happy to get some feedback from you before I go on.

                        Cheers!

                        JKSHJ Offline
                        JKSHJ Offline
                        JKSH
                        Moderators
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #19

                        @Wieland said:

                        Hello everyone,

                        I've made some changes to the main page. I haven't actually deleted anything but mostly created a handful of new pages and moved stuff there. Of course it's far from being complete but I think one can get an idea of what my intentions are. I would be happy to get some feedback from you before I go on.

                        Cheers!

                        It's much tidier than before. I like it! Thanks!

                        Qt Doc Search for browsers: forum.qt.io/topic/35616/web-browser-extension-for-improved-doc-searches

                        1 Reply Last reply
                        1
                        • ? Offline
                          ? Offline
                          A Former User
                          wrote on last edited by A Former User
                          #20

                          Hi guys!

                          I'm currently gathering information needed to improve the "Supported Platforms" page. By now it is more or less repeating what is already stated here and here. I would like to add some info that is hard to find elsewhere and I need some help: What platforms is Qt known to work on that are not supported either by The Qt Company or the community? E.g. I know that one can use it on FreeBSD. What else do we have? What about the other *BSDs, OpenIndiana, Haiku? What about VxWorks? VxWorks runs on all industrial robots made by Kuka (very big market share). And it drives the NASA mars rovers. Another thing is gaming consoles: Are there any for that one can write games with Qt? What about stuff like home automation, car entertainment systems, machine tools or process automation?

                          Cheers!

                          JKSHJ 1 Reply Last reply
                          1
                          • ? A Former User

                            Hi guys!

                            I'm currently gathering information needed to improve the "Supported Platforms" page. By now it is more or less repeating what is already stated here and here. I would like to add some info that is hard to find elsewhere and I need some help: What platforms is Qt known to work on that are not supported either by The Qt Company or the community? E.g. I know that one can use it on FreeBSD. What else do we have? What about the other *BSDs, OpenIndiana, Haiku? What about VxWorks? VxWorks runs on all industrial robots made by Kuka (very big market share). And it drives the NASA mars rovers. Another thing is gaming consoles: Are there any for that one can write games with Qt? What about stuff like home automation, car entertainment systems, machine tools or process automation?

                            Cheers!

                            JKSHJ Offline
                            JKSHJ Offline
                            JKSH
                            Moderators
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #21

                            @Wieland, good questions.

                            • Repetitions: We should try to minimize repetitions. The wiki could simply provide links to the official docs.
                            • Platforms: I don't know much about this topic, but...
                              • http://doc.qt.io/qt-5/supported-platforms.html mentions VxWorks, which is supported via the commercial license IIRC (so I'm not sure why it's in the "Community Supported Platforms" page).
                              • Someone's working on a Haiku port: https://www.haiku-os.org/community/forum/qt_53_haiku_progress
                            • Gaming consoles: I haven't heard of anyone doing that, but Windows 10 is coming to the XBox One so we might be able to get it to work there with minimal effort.
                            • Home/process automation, car entertainment:
                              • There are key focuses of the Qt World Summit this year: https://www.qtworldsummit.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/QtWS15_CallForPapers_May312015.pdf
                              • See also http://www.qt.io/case-navico/ and http://www.qt.io/case-panasonic/
                            • Process automation: My day job is to develop industrial measurement and control systems. A key component of these systems are the industrial communication protocols, which Qt itself doesn't provide (except Qt Serial Port). My company uses LabVIEW which has good support for these protocols and other features that target industrial systems. However, I have used Qt to implement the GUI for 1 project so far, where the client wanted a fancy, flexible GUI -- this is where Qt outshines LabVIEW.

                            Qt Doc Search for browsers: forum.qt.io/topic/35616/web-browser-extension-for-improved-doc-searches

                            ? 1 Reply Last reply
                            1
                            • JKSHJ JKSH

                              @Wieland, good questions.

                              • Repetitions: We should try to minimize repetitions. The wiki could simply provide links to the official docs.
                              • Platforms: I don't know much about this topic, but...
                                • http://doc.qt.io/qt-5/supported-platforms.html mentions VxWorks, which is supported via the commercial license IIRC (so I'm not sure why it's in the "Community Supported Platforms" page).
                                • Someone's working on a Haiku port: https://www.haiku-os.org/community/forum/qt_53_haiku_progress
                              • Gaming consoles: I haven't heard of anyone doing that, but Windows 10 is coming to the XBox One so we might be able to get it to work there with minimal effort.
                              • Home/process automation, car entertainment:
                                • There are key focuses of the Qt World Summit this year: https://www.qtworldsummit.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/QtWS15_CallForPapers_May312015.pdf
                                • See also http://www.qt.io/case-navico/ and http://www.qt.io/case-panasonic/
                              • Process automation: My day job is to develop industrial measurement and control systems. A key component of these systems are the industrial communication protocols, which Qt itself doesn't provide (except Qt Serial Port). My company uses LabVIEW which has good support for these protocols and other features that target industrial systems. However, I have used Qt to implement the GUI for 1 project so far, where the client wanted a fancy, flexible GUI -- this is where Qt outshines LabVIEW.
                              ? Offline
                              ? Offline
                              A Former User
                              wrote on last edited by
                              #22

                              Hello @JKSH,

                              thank you very much for your extensive reply and the links! Regarding repetitions: Agreed. I will remove these parts from the wiki. Haiku : Awesome! Didn't know the guys were that near to a working port.

                              Thanks again!
                              Bye!

                              1 Reply Last reply
                              1
                              • SGaistS Offline
                                SGaistS Offline
                                SGaist
                                Lifetime Qt Champion
                                wrote on last edited by
                                #23

                                IIRC, the PS3 could run linux (Yellow Dog Linux if memory serves well but also OpenSuse and Ubuntu) at least the original systems but not the latest iterations. The latest firmware also disabled that possibility but if the OS had X running, then Qt was probably supported.

                                Interested in AI ? www.idiap.ch
                                Please read the Qt Code of Conduct - https://forum.qt.io/topic/113070/qt-code-of-conduct

                                ? 1 Reply Last reply
                                1
                                • SGaistS SGaist

                                  IIRC, the PS3 could run linux (Yellow Dog Linux if memory serves well but also OpenSuse and Ubuntu) at least the original systems but not the latest iterations. The latest firmware also disabled that possibility but if the OS had X running, then Qt was probably supported.

                                  ? Offline
                                  ? Offline
                                  A Former User
                                  wrote on last edited by
                                  #24

                                  @SGaist Yes, I remember when Sony shipped a new firmware that made it impossible to install Linux on the PS3. Big fail.

                                  1 Reply Last reply
                                  1
                                  • ? Offline
                                    ? Offline
                                    A Former User
                                    wrote on last edited by A Former User
                                    #25

                                    Hi everyone!
                                    While I'm cutting my way through the wiki I'm wondering what's the difference between a snippet, a howto, a demo and an example? Any ideas? :-)

                                    1 Reply Last reply
                                    1
                                    • SGaistS Offline
                                      SGaistS Offline
                                      SGaist
                                      Lifetime Qt Champion
                                      wrote on last edited by
                                      #26

                                      Hi,

                                      I'd say demos and examples are pretty much the same with the difference that an example shows/explains basic concepts and a demo goes further. I see a snippet being a code sample that you can easily reuse in your project e.g. a sorting algorithm for Qt's container class. Howto should be a an example/demo with complete explanation on how to do a given task/solve a given problem.

                                      Interested in AI ? www.idiap.ch
                                      Please read the Qt Code of Conduct - https://forum.qt.io/topic/113070/qt-code-of-conduct

                                      ? 1 Reply Last reply
                                      2
                                      • SGaistS SGaist

                                        Hi,

                                        I'd say demos and examples are pretty much the same with the difference that an example shows/explains basic concepts and a demo goes further. I see a snippet being a code sample that you can easily reuse in your project e.g. a sorting algorithm for Qt's container class. Howto should be a an example/demo with complete explanation on how to do a given task/solve a given problem.

                                        ? Offline
                                        ? Offline
                                        A Former User
                                        wrote on last edited by
                                        #27

                                        @SGaist Thanks. That sounds sane. The problem with this regarding the wiki is that only a few people seem to have a clue about this classification and thus the coresponding categories get mixed up. I'm looking for an easy to understand definition of the terms so that we can put it on the wiki to help people finding the right category for their content.

                                        1 Reply Last reply
                                        2
                                        • JKSHJ JKSH

                                          @Wieland said:

                                          For example, the main page shows a table with Qt releases. Should this really be there?

                                          @tekojo said:

                                          The release table appeared there a couple of days back. It makes sense to have one (we didn't previously). But probably it should be a page with a link to it from the main page. With the link probably under developing Qt.

                                          I added that table a few days ago, but didn't intend for the full table to be on the front page for long. (I didn't want to spend time creating an additional brief table then, and I was also being sneaky in trying to increase its visibility this way.)

                                          I quite like how Ubuntu has presented their release info:

                                          • Main page with small table: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Home
                                          • Detailed tables: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Releases

                                          Would you be willing to polish that, @Wieland?

                                          A lot of material is needed to explain Qt, and the wiki is the place for that.

                                          I was thinking about the history of Qt. There's a very nice but very brief overview at http://qt.io/qt20 -- it would be great to expand on that. It doesn't belong in official documentation (especially the parts about old versions), but would be right at home in the wiki.

                                          This brings in the problem of how the wiki should be organised. I like the front page for being organised around things that you might do. That is a good approach, it makes finding things simpler. However too many items on a page make it harder to read and find things.

                                          Agreed.

                                          I think the following would be helpful for the main page:

                                          • Make the Release Info table briefer, move the full table elsewhere (and expand it -- it's not complete yet)
                                          • Move less important links into their "Overview" pages to declutter the main page
                                          • Use boxes and icons for visual grouping (I find a long hierarchical list hard to read)

                                          Related to organization, we also need to overhaul the Categories system. There are too many single-member categories.

                                          ? Offline
                                          ? Offline
                                          A Former User
                                          wrote on last edited by A Former User
                                          #28

                                          @JKSH said:

                                          Related to organization, we also need to overhaul the Categories system. There are too many single-member categories.

                                          I managed to get rid of about 80% of them. Now it's up to the admins to delete the remaining 171 (!) unused categories... :-)

                                          Edit: I think by now categories are a big pain in the arse: They are hard to maintain because only admins can move them and it seems that everyone thinks that his/her article needs to be a category by its own. IMAO we need some very strict policy to fight this.

                                          Edit2: Maybe we should rethink the categories system and use it a bit differently than intended by its inventors. Category pages are in some way stupid because one cannot localize them because there is always only one category page and the suffix-stuff doesn't work there. But: The content that is automatically generated there is language agnostic to users who are logged in. What if we forbid the manual editing of category pages by policy and give the suffix /en to all English content? I'm not sure yet if this is a good idea. Honestly, I tend to think this would be a dirty workaround. I still think that dedicated mediawikis in subdomains would be much cleaner. What do you think?

                                          1 Reply Last reply
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