How to avoid ratings users give just for gaining points



  • I have noticed that almost every other post is rated up and tagged quickly. Now tagging is good. But someone just rating any article just for gaining points is not so good. If this happens then there is no meaning for rating - it should be genuine and not done for merely gaining points.

    Would like to know your opinion



  • Yes, system of gaining points look to be not perfect. Some actions that give you points don't really help to develop the Qt community. For example, I can add all possible tags to my post to get more points. But what's the profit of this for the community. From the other side in such a case I'm stupid because I'm trying to get more points which in fact doesn't matter anything.



  • And would be better does not allow rating many articles very often for short time.



  • [quote author="VC15" date="1284626475"]Yes, system of gaining points look to be not perfect. Some actions that give you points don't really help to develop the Qt community. For example, I can add all possible tags to my post to get more points. But what's the profit of this for the community. From the other side in such a case I'm stupid because I'm trying to get more points which in fact doesn't matter anything.[/quote]

    You are right I have seen people tagging for almost all the words. How is that going to help.

    Soon a scenario might arise that you will have to issue points to cleanup the forum.



  • [quote author="Alexander Kuchumov" date="1284627203"]And would be better does not allow rating many articles very often for short time.[/quote]

    I think that this is not the solution. What if someday there have been posted several threads that are worth rating up indeed? I guess the rating system should be reorganized thoroughfully.

    The first idea that comes to my mind is that the rating of the thread should automatic. The rating should be calculated from the activity of the thread (number of posts and the rate at which new posts are coming) + the quality/sense of posts (i.e. not just "Great", "Wow" , etc) + the number of thanks (via Thank button, I hope this will be implemented) + some other parameters.

    UPD: Or maybe rating up should add points to the user.


  • Moderators

    QtK: You are aware that you get points deducted when tags you set are removed again? So just adding useless tags will just have people remove them again and your points are back to where they were originally. This is not a way to gain points.

    I further doubt that people rate up stuff to gain points... I do rate up everything I read, but not for the points but as a kind of bookmark to show which pages I had already visited before. As far as I can tell there is no (other) way to find out whether you had seen pages already.



  • [quote author="Tobias Hunger" date="1284639320"]I further doubt that people rate up stuff to gain points... I do rate up everything I read, but not for the points but as a kind of bookmark to show which pages I had already visited before. As far as I can tell there is no (other) way to find out whether you had seen pages already.[/quote]

    But isn't that a misusing of Rating up button? I mean, a person comes to read threads and sees that lots of people have rated them up and he expects those thread to be informative and useful, but in fact, he starts reading some useless posts only because many of other people bookmarked them via Rating button.



  • I have ready talked to Marius about this. I even tried to start a thread about this too.

    Well, He said the rating points are limitaded by 100 rates/day. as a complement I suggested that the rating points should be limmitaded by, at maximum, 10 or 20% of your total points. It solves the problem of high ranked yours without real contributions.



  • Btw, I've "rated this up" :)



  • [quote author="danilocesar" date="1284640853"]I have ready talked to Marcus about this. I even tried to start a thread about this too.

    Well, He said the rating points are limitaded by 100 rates/day. as a complement I suggested that the rating points should be limmitaded by, at maximum, 10 or 20% of your total points. It solves the problem of high ranked yours without real contributions. [/quote]

    It doesn't solve the porblem completely. Let's say that you limit rating points with 10% out of your total points and initially you have N = 100 points. After K days you can get 1.1^K*N.
    (the numbers are floored where applicable)
    Day 0: 100
    Day 1: 110
    Day 2: 121
    Day 3: 133
    Day 4: 146
    Day 5: 161
    Day 6: 177
    Day 7: 194
    etc...

    You can try different number of points, bu after 1 week you can double(approximately) the number of your points without real contribution.


  • Moderators

    lyuts: It is a misuse, yes. But I doubt that it will break the rating system: As long as I read almost everything I am just raising the null mark. Good posts will still stick out above that mark.



  • [quote author="Tobias Hunger" date="1284641770"]lyuts: It is a misuse, yes. But I doubt that it will break the rating system: As long as I read almost everything I am just raising the null mark. Good posts will still stick out above that mark.[/quote]

    Well, in your case, you are right, your sort of do the grade shifting. But it can be misused by those who can't/doesn't read everything here. In this case, the mark is misrepresented.



  • [quote author="Tobias Hunger" date="1284639320"]QtK: You are aware that you get points deducted when tags you set are removed again? So just adding useless tags will just have people remove them again and your points are back to where they were originally. This is not a way to gain points.

    I further doubt that people rate up stuff to gain points... I do rate up everything I read, but not for the points but as a kind of bookmark to show which pages I had already visited before. As far as I can tell there is no (other) way to find out whether you had seen pages already.[/quote]

    Yes, I had observed that for Tags. So that is fine. But for rating if we start rating all the articles we read - then its a misuse of the feature.

    Now we can have the admins ask about some feature to know which posts were read and which ones are not yet read. Like we can have some different color to the post.

    But for rating I strongly feel that you should rate only if you like the rating - not for points or to know if the thread was read by the user.



  • [quote author="lyuts" date="1284642014"][quote author="Tobias Hunger" date="1284641770"]lyuts: It is a misuse, yes. But I doubt that it will break the rating system: As long as I read almost everything I am just raising the null mark. Good posts will still stick out above that mark.[/quote]

    Well, in your case, you are right, your sort of do the grade shifting. But it can be misused by those who can't/doesn't read everything here. In this case, the mark is misrepresented.[/quote]

    The best option is to have some other indication for posts that have been read and those are new.


  • Moderators

    QtK: I fully agree. A "take me to the first comment I have not read in this thread" link would be greatly appreciated:-)



  • [quote author="Tobias Hunger" date="1284642572"]QtK: I fully agree. A "take me to the first comment I have not read in this thread" link would be greatly appreciated:-)[/quote]

    I guess this kind of link is mailed to your e-mail, but it would be nice to have such button/link on site. + It would be nice to have a button "Show me threads I have not read".

    Tobias: Thank you for communication and cooperation. I think this is a great practice, when users communicate with people who deliver some service.



  • I can confirm the "100 points a day from rating"-limitation, to prevent simple hacks.

    And we have a feature request for "max % amount of points from rating".

    The rating system is not an exact science, Tobias nails it right here:

    [quote author="Tobias Hunger" date="1284641770"]lyuts: It is a misuse, yes. But I doubt that it will break the rating system: As long as I read almost everything I am just raising the null mark. Good posts will still stick out above that mark.[/quote]


  • Moderators

    lyuts: You are welcome, even though I am not sure why you are thanking me:-)

    I just hang out around here when my computer is busy munching through Qt and Creator.

    PS: I am only replying to get 5 more points! :-)



  • [quote author="Tobias Hunger" date="1284644104"]lyuts: You are welcome, even though I am not sure why you are thanking me:-)

    I just hang out around here when my computer is busy munching through Qt and Creator.

    PS: I am only replying to get 5 more points! :-)[/quote]

    Oh, you are not involved in QtDN developement, are you? If not, give me back my "Thank you" :-), just kidding.


  • Moderators

    MariusG: Don't make the rules too complex!

    Somebody who takes the time to rate up hundreds of items to get the points he needs to become a moderator or whatever has demonstrated a commitment to the site (or just an enormous amount of boredom), just like somebody posting lots of comments.

    And of course comments can be just as useless as mindless up-rating... Yes, you could get really funky and implement a comment evaluator framework to discount "Me too"-like comments, but is that really worth it?



  • [quote author="lyuts" date="1284644375"]
    Oh, you are not involved in QtDN developement, are you? If not, give me back my "Thank you" :-), just kidding.
    [/quote]

    I am, but I was busy launching the "new labs":http://labs.qt.nokia.com/ :) (hope you like it!)



  • [quote author="lyuts" date="1284641607"][quote author="danilocesar" date="1284640853"]I have ready talked to Marcus about this. I even tried to start a thread about this too.

    Well, He said the rating points are limitaded by 100 rates/day. as a complement I suggested that the rating points should be limmitaded by, at maximum, 10 or 20% of your total points. It solves the problem of high ranked yours without real contributions. [/quote]

    It doesn't solve the porblem completely. Let's say that you limit rating points with 10% out of your total points and initially you have N = 100 points. After K days you can get 1.1^K*N.
    (the numbers are floored where applicable)
    Day 0: 100
    Day 1: 110
    Day 2: 121
    Day 3: 133
    Day 4: 146
    Day 5: 161
    Day 6: 177
    Day 7: 194
    etc...

    You can try different number of points, bu after 1 week you can double(approximately) the number of your points without real contribution.[/quote]

    The percentage thing is not weekly limited... Anytime, if you have 10 rating points you should have 100 points of contribution. It's something like:

    @int totalPoints = CP + qmin(ratingPoints, CP * 0.1);@

    • where CP = contribution points.


  • danilocesar: I'm probably not getting the percentage limit. I treated them as a day limit and "a user can get not more than 10% * N, where N is his number of points"



  • Maybe it's a good idea to explain the thinking behind those points and actions. :)

    The system we have in place right now only rewards activity. It does not look at quality, only quantity. We want to see who spends time on the site and provide instant gratification. It has its flaws like most systems. With the number of users we're aiming at possible misuse of features like rating will even out over time.

    Besides, the rights associated with the ranks are not fully implemented yet.

    The requests for some sort of unread-thread-feature is fair though. I have noted that in out tracker.



  • [quote author="lyuts" date="1284646464"]danilocesar: I'm probably not getting the percentage limit. I treated them as a day limit and "a user can get not more than 10% * N, where N is his number of points"[/quote]

    Ok, let suppose you never rated a page before. In that case, lets call your points as "real contribution points", or CP.
    CP = 345.
    So, lets say you stop doing that kind of points and start just to rate pages. You can reach, at maximum 34 more points. Doesn't matter how many pages you've rated, or days you spent doing it. In the final score, you can't make more points until you make more CPs.



  • [quote author="danilocesar" date="1284647184"][quote author="lyuts" date="1284646464"]danilocesar: I'm probably not getting the percentage limit. I treated them as a day limit and "a user can get not more than 10% * N, where N is his number of points"[/quote]

    Ok, let suppose you never rated a page before. In that case, lets call your points as "real contribution points", or CP.
    CP = 345.
    So, lets say you stop doing that kind of points and start just to rate pages. You can reach, at maximum 34 more points. Doesn't matter how many pages you've rated, or days you spent doing it. In the final score, you can't make more points until you make more CPs.[/quote]

    Oh, I finally got what you meant. The percent-limit is permanent until you get more points by posting.



  • Once you start giving points, tokens and titles as a way to reward users for their contributions, you turn it into a kind of game. Users, even subconsciously, start competing with each other and with themselves. This is something good and healthy for the community as a whole.

    The problem is that if there's a trivial way of gaining points, some users will exploit it and the overall value of the ranking system will decrease.

    In this case it's particularly bad: users get points for ranking articles. As a consequence, not so well intentioned users (and they always exist) will promote articles not because of their quality, but just to get points.

    It may sound as a minor bug or misfeature, but the fact that this thread is already two pages long shows that users do pay attention to this kind of ranking system and you should try calibrating it as much as you can to make sure the real contributors get the points. There are a couple of solutions proposed in this thread which appear to be easy to implement.

    Just my 2 cents.



  • [quote author="MariusG" date="1284643823"]I can confirm the "100 points a day from rating"-limitation, to prevent simple hacks.

    And we have a feature request for "max % amount of points from rating".
    [/quote]

    Why not also introduce a "Max % amount of points from tagging"



  • [quote author="MariusG" date="1284644671"]I am, but I was busy launching the "new labs":http://labs.qt.nokia.com/ :) (hope you like it!)
    [/quote]

    It looks great. Why even my old labs.trolltech.com links are now automatically redirected ! :)



  • [quote author="Alexandra Leisse" date="1284647086"]Maybe it's a good idea to explain the thinking behind those points and actions. :)

    The system we have in place right now only rewards activity. It does not look at quality, only quantity. We want to see who spends time on the site and provide instant gratification. It has its flaws like most systems. With the number of users we're aiming at possible misuse of features like rating will even out over time.[/quote]
    I doubt it, especially with actions like project Elf. I think ratings, but also points, are less useful because of this. In a "post":http://developer.qt.nokia.com/forums/viewthread/2944/#18552 that should have been a reaction to this thread, I pointed out a "forum posting":http://developer.qt.nokia.com/forums/viewthread/2926/ that had no real value (yet, for lack of information), but still was rated up four times already. How is that helpful for anyone?

    I think rating content should either not yield points, or it should be possible to rate "average" and "poor" too. The current way, added to the "abuse" Tobias described, just makes the signal/noice ratio too low to yield a useful topic rating IMHO.



  • A more sophisticated rating system seems to be thought about at the moment:



  • I'd just remove this scoring system entirely, because it simply encourages spam (of tags/ratings/whatever). Instead, I'd go on community-based ranking: I rank other users because of their work (replies, articles on the wiki, etc.), eventually with something like "you have X points each day to rank other people" where X depends on your current score.



  • [quote author="peppe" date="1294062682"]I'd just remove this scoring system entirely, because it simply encourages spam (of tags/ratings/whatever). Instead, I'd go on community-based ranking: I rank other users because of their work (replies, articles on the wiki, etc.), eventually with something like "you have X points each day to rank other people" where X depends on your current score.[/quote]

    Something like that is expected to come up in future.



  • I hope that I not duplicated stuff in this discussion, but I've just not enough time.
    Please have a look on
    "[=b Rate this up] - Cannot rate your own content":http://developer.qt.nokia.com/forums/viewthread/3057/


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