Points and Wiki



  • I realize how difficult a challenge this is in the first place (and I swear that this isn't related to either Project Elf or the status symbol that is the badge!), but I wanted to point out a bit of a flaw IMHO in how points and wiki entries relate.

    I don't know that this is "normal", but when I write a wiki entry, it usually takes me six to twelve hours of work. (Consider the "Grammatical number" page on QtCentre - that one was closer to sixteen hours!)

    Perhaps there could be a system where a new wiki page starts out at a low value, and if the page gets a lot of views, or gets marked as useful, or something like that - then the number of points it is worth would go up in proportion to either page-views, or the length of the entry, or some such?

    Just my two [small-worth coin of your choice]...



  • Gordon, fair enough. But not sure that it will not lead to abusing this system. Maybe based on views and rateups ?



  • Views by people other than the poster hopefully or you'll get the guy refreshing the page non-stop. Remember it counts refresh as a new view. Actually, someone could get a second account to do that.



  • xsacha, it is obvious that it is impossible to build perfect rating system, that cannot be abused. Marius already told about it and I'm agreed with his words that we simply need "system that is good enough".



  • Well at FN Wiki its a group of panelists who judge the quality as well as quantity of the articles and then award the rewards. That way only the best and deserving ones get.



  • QtK, it is of course the best way to solve wiki quality problem, but Qt DevNet is not so mature as FH is. It needs a lot of moderators to do it. But I hope sometime we will grow enough.



  • denis, any thoughts on how many moderators say per 1000 users a site like this would require :)



  • chetankjain, as I think something like 2-3 moderators per user.



  • [quote author="Denis Kormalev" date="1291490292"]chetankjain, as I think something like 2-3 moderators per user. [/quote]

    per user or per 1000 users .. did I get you right or is your answer based on some recent happenings :P



  • chetankjain, oooops, per 1000 users of course.



  • I personally prefer a gratification system based on quality of content too. I see that is kind of unfair that one that invests a reasonable amount of time to create a good wiki article is rewarded the same points as someone who just does some copy'n'paste from an API docs.

    But I also see, that it is difficult to implement that and at the moment the focus here on DevNet is to generate content, hence the rewarding of quantity. Let's see what the future brings to us. If the site has grown to a critical mass, the system might be changed.



  • [quote author="Volker" date="1291497259"]I personally prefer a gratification system based on quality of content too. I see that is kind of unfair that one that invests a reasonable amount of time to create a good wiki article is rewarded the same points as someone who just does some copy'n'paste from an API docs.[/quote]

    I agree Volker, when I answer and solve someone's problem, a simple thanks from the user brings a lot of gratification ... I don't remember how many points I earned at the end of the day, but I do remember that I solved those 3 problems. Lets wait for the new scoring system that the devnet team is working on based on "thank you" ...



  • To add to this ... the bonus system is just a nice add on. Usually it is fun to ask the questions, otherwise we all would not do this job, would we? And often I can learn from the questions I answer too.



  • [quote author="Denis Kormalev" date="1291479293"]Gordon, fair enough. But not sure that it will not lead to abusing this system. Maybe based on views and rateups ?[/quote]

    You are right - view count is not a good choice, I retract that thought. Perhaps something like Google's algorithm (people who have good ratings marking something as good boost it much more than people with poor or no rating...?)



  • It's clear, that we need a good enough rating system, as Marius said. The thanks system is good enough I think. But we also have to think about wikis, that someone edited for hours, and some other member just modificated it a little bit. I now, that is not to easy to implement (maybe based on the number of charaters, and number of times it was edited by the same user), but if it worths 1 point/per x thanks, then the person who added the most value to it, he/she should get more points than who "just" wrote 1-2 sentences. It can be done, by raising the number of /thanks for the other member.



  • This discussion really makes me wish I had a few extra web dev guys and a spare week to really dig into making a point system that has higher ambitions than "good enough". I hope maybe we can distill our collective wisdom down to something that is fairly easy to implement (and scales). And go from there.

    Thanks for all the comments on wiki and points, you guys are great, I hope all of you win in one week or the other this December :)

    Off Topic: I logged on a minute ago and it showed 656 unread posts. My first thought was "oh dear, did the spammers get us?" Then I realized I was using another browser than usual, it hadn't been here for a few days :)



  • Off topic:

    [quote author="mariusg" date="1291505038"]Off Topic: I logged on a minute ago and it showed 656 unread posts. My first thought was "oh dear, did the spammers get us?" Then I realized I was using another browser than usual, it hadn't been here for a few days :)[/quote]

    That could be a nice moment :)



  • [quote author="Denis Kormalev" date="1291490292"]chetankjain, as I think something like 2-3 moderators per user. [/quote]
    I thought the users were the moderators ;) Isn't that what ranks like Dinosaur Breeder->Mad Scientist are for?

    I really think the best system is one that doesn't disclose how the result was formed.

    That is, you have X points but have no idea how you got them. You don't need to update the points in real-time either, as this encourages people to spam more when they see their points rise. You could have it update once a day. This encourages more responsible, calm, thoughtful posting, I think.



  • Well they'd have a whole day not getting any points.

    But the point is there can be complexity in this. Such as points based on views+rating with a maximum of X and only rewarded Y times and so on. No one would have enough time to completely learn the point system and the point system could change at any time (as it does).

    Basically everyone would forget about gaining points and be more worried about gaining important posts.



  • [quote author="tamhanna" date="1291537079"]
    [quote author="xsacha" date="1291537009"]
    Basically everyone would forget about gaining points and be more worried about gaining important posts.[/quote]

    Which is exactly what Ron has achieved over at FN...[/quote]

    I agree to this that point system will always have some disadvantage if its automated. At FN administrators take pain to judge the quantity and quality of posts. So when results are announced everyone is happy. And even the spammer knows that he is at the wrong place.



  • [quote author="tamhanna" date="1291558226"]
    i'd say: Let's look at how active people will be after project elf is over.[/quote]
    I don't think that's fair though because holidays are coming up. People are going to be leaving to go overseas and so on and might not be as active. I will be taking a two-week vacation and rarely using my laptop or phone, for instance.

    If anything, this Project Elf gives the admins here some real information about how people use the forums/wiki/faqs and how they react to the points system. It's a stress-test so to speak.



  • [quote author="xsacha" date="1291558520"]People are going to be leaving to go overseas and so on and might not be as active. I will be taking a two-week vacation and rarely using my laptop or phone, for instance.
    [/quote]

    So you feel that there wont be much action in the coming weeks during vacations even with project elf continuing.



  • My vacation will be from end of december (Christmas) through new year in to Jan. I think Elf will have ended while I'm on vacation.

    Most people will have that time off. And then back to work.



  • [quote author="xsacha" date="1291558874"]My vacation will be from end of december (Christmas) through new year in to Jan. I think Elf will have ended while I'm on vacation.

    Most people will have that time off. And then back to work.[/quote]

    Right if the last week is not counted then 27th might be the day when last set of winners are announced.



  • [quote author="xsacha" date="1291558520"]If anything, this Project Elf gives the admins here some real information about how people use the forums/wiki/faqs and how they react to the points system. It's a stress-test so to speak.[/quote]

    You Sir, are as wise as the hills are old :)



  • [quote author="mariusg" date="1291505038"]This discussion really makes me wish I had a few extra web dev guys and a spare week to really dig into making a point system that has higher ambitions than "good enough".[/quote]

    That's always the way of it though - there's always more good (and usually even important!) stuff to do than there is time.

    [quote author="tamhanna" date="1291587743"]And no, I am going to sleep. In fact, I already would sleep if it werent for two annoying comments from Volker.[/quote]

    "Can't sleep...":http://xkcd.com/386



  • closing this thread


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