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Rumor discussion: Nokia and Microsoft to team up on Windows Phone 7



  • xsacha: I couldn't agree with you more. It depresses me how the media, and many people, moan about Nokia's falling market share, when as you point out, Nokia's sales are increasing, and the falling market share is a statistical quirk due to an enlarging market, with more people entering the market.

    Consider, is it better to be 60% in a tiny market, or 30% in a massive market, with far more sales? Yet I bet when the Ipad's market share falls as more tablets come onto the market, we won't hear the media criticising Apple...

    That said, who knows - I would hope that Nokia are aware of Symbian's success. I guess they think that WP is a better technology for future development, or perhaps they no longer want to spend the R&D on maintaining an OS themselves. I'm not saying it's a good thing - it is indeed very risky, but who knows.

    The funny thing is that even if this move is a disaster for Nokia relative to their current success, they could still ship enough WP phones to massively increase its growth, perhaps still doing better than Apple. So despite a disaster, the headlines will be "Windows Phone now outsells the Iphone", which after hearing so many Iphone users loving to mock Windows Phone, I would find rather funny :)



  • Developers are leaving Nokia because of this, Nokia will not have many fresh apps to offer their customers before the first wp7 devices. And when that happends, wp7 got a lot less apps than Nokia do today. So.. I don't see any reason that customers will want any new Nokia devices from this day on.

    This is the start of the end of a very nice company that had a bright future.



  • sleam, you don't see but I do. I'll certainly buy nokia phone with WP7 when it will emerge. My word against yours? Whose is the right one? We will see it soon.
    And know what? I'm not alone in it. Many peoples like Nokia as well as Microsoft. And they will be glad to have a Nokia phone with MS OS on the board.



  • ixSci: What are you doing in a Qt-forum anyway. Qt is not in the roadmap for WP. You don't give the impression that you're interested in the future of Qt. You should be all happy and just start VS and do your C#-stuff.



  • mario, if I don't cry around doesn't mean I'm not interested in Qt.



  • ixSci: Well, at least I get the impression is that WP's future is more interesting than Qt's, but I might be wrong



  • No, I want to use WP7 as an user. And I want to use Qt as a developer. I like C++ and therefore it is a nonsense to not bother of Qt future as long as I see the C++ Desktop future with Qt only. But as I said I see no bad signs around. All will be fine, you will see that.



  • Of course all will be fine for the desktop, Qt is LGPL'd and KDE has an agreement, the "KDE Free Qt Foundation":http://www.kde.org/community/whatiskde/kdefreeqtfoundation.php, but I would really like to see Qt as a first citizen framework on mobile device.... But that's just me :)



  • [quote]but I would really like to see Qt as a first citizen framework on mobile device[/quote]
    Meego is not dead yet. Android has a community port and I believe we will see more efforts on it from the Nokia itself. Just don't make such a quick conclusion from this MS-Nokia deal.



  • I do also believe that we will see community ports of this but there will be no app-store or anything like that which makes it more of an pet-project framework.

    Let's see what happens



  • I hope we will hear good news next week....sure today Nokia had no smartphone killer and MS have only 4.2 % on the mobile market,compare to that,the android plateform and apple will not wait ...looking the growth of them , it s quite wirring.
    In term of store both android and apple have so much applications than in the ovi Store.Apple decided to attack low price mobile...
    In this market condition you need to get a killer phone ,a plateform and a clear vision (your idea, their tools) .We had a taste of it last friday.

    I cant see how the deal could give something good when the only hope MEEGO+QT brutally slow down.(see Mr Elop Memo on the burning plateform).

    I really hope to hear Some Qt good news.

    Regards

    David

    smartphone sales:
    http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-19736_7-20031147-251.html



  • [quote author="mdwh" date="1297533699"]That said, who knows - I would hope that Nokia are aware of Symbian's success. I guess they think that WP is a better technology for future development, or perhaps they no longer want to spend the R&D on maintaining an OS themselves. I'm not saying it's a good thing - it is indeed very risky, but who knows.[/quote]

    Well of course the idea is that they will save R&D money by not developing software. However, of course, in this deal they must pay someone to use said software which may very likely cost more than if they did it in house (with R&D). Most of the reductions in R&D will actually come from increasing efficiency through lay-offs and focus (eg. Meego gets almost no R&D now).

    Their plan is it will take two years to get the transition going to WP7. But, my question is how could they possibly think that it would take longer to fix Symbian/Meego (the former which lacks a UI and the latter which lacks nothing as it will run Android & iOS applications). Two years is a long time for Qt and Meego. It could be massive by then.

    In two years, WP7 will still be using IE9 (it's IE7 now but IE9 isn't much better) with its bad HTML5 support and bad JS support. Again, Nokia will have the worst mobile browser on the planet. But this time, third party browsers are not allowed. Symbian/Meego had a webkit solution and a fennec-qt solution. It is very disappointing.
    In two years, WP7 may finally get an update to solve copy and paste, multi-tasking, custom ringtones, bluetooth, tethering and wireless hotspots that we all take for granted today.

    [quote author="dguimard" date="1297545382"]MS have only 4.2 % on the mobile market
    smartphone sales:
    http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-19736_7-20031147-251.html[/quote]
    I'm afraid it is worse than that. Most of that 4.2% includes Windows Mobile sales. 2 million out of 100 million is 2%. Windows Mobile 6.5 actually outsold Windows Phone 7.
    I can pretty much guarantee that most those WM6.5 users would jump to Android as it is the most similar. WP7 is nothing like it.



  • They are not likely to get rid of the Qt. Here is "blog":http://blog.qt.nokia.com/2011/02/12/nokia-new-strategic-direction-what-is-the-future-for-qt/ by one of the Sales manager



  • [quote author="Immii" date="1297574521"]They are not likely to get rid of the Qt.[/quote]

    Well they aren't going to be using Qt in any of their products and they are trying to cut down on redundant spending. It doesn't make sense they'd invest much in to a toolkit that they don't use.
    I think we can expect planned 4.9/4.10/5.0 to be canned in favour of bug fixes to the current versions.

    Best possible future: http://www.msqt.org/qdeclarativeexamples.html ?



  • Hello

    Nice idea of course this msqt, if it was a real Nokia site we will not see google advertising on the side i think...

    Does the feeling of developer(upset) will translate to the public ???
    I am not sure, but I think what the investors see now is LACK OF DIRECTION AND VISION within Nokia. I do not believe that MS and Nokia can bring a NEW product, which would win on the market within next 6 months. UI of MS phone is ugly and would have to be totally redone if they want to compete with Apple. Nokia can provide hardware for various OS, no problem (Intel does it and no one has a problem with it), changing direction for a mere 3% of the market in smartphones ( mostly in US) and letting QT slide like this in silence is a mistake.
    What would be an interesting question is - how much resources and support Nokia really dedicated to QT?



  • One more thing, what I really do not understand in the deal with MS is - Microsoft have NOTHING TO OFFER in the area of smartphones. MS gets the best hardware, and the gossip says that Samsung wanted to stop producing for MS....

    I tried Windows 7 handset and UX is much better on Symbian 3 + QT.
    and who is using Bing?!? it's not like the promise of Bing on my phone would make me buy it!



  • [quote] UI of MS phone is ugly and would have to be totally redone if they want to compete with Apple[/quote]
    Yeah, I've heard the same things about MS Ribbon a few years ago. Where is the ribbon an where are those prophets now?



  • what does MS have to offer in the area of smartphone?what do they give to Nokia in this deal?



  • [quote]One more thing, what I really do not understand in the deal with MS is – Microsoft have NOTHING TO OFFER in the area of smartphones[/quote]
    Do you really think you know better than Nokia CEO and key shareholders?
    [quote]what does MS have to offer in the area of smartphone?what do they give to Nokia in this deal?[/quote]
    Isn't it obvious? MS gives NOKIA WP7.



  • just like other developers we spend many months to be able to produce good level application using QT.Now ,it 's seems that is a waste investment and we better have publish on appStore or android market.



  • right now only 3% of smartphone owners decided that WP7 is worth their money. So obviously to have a killer smartphone as Nokia promises, SOMETHING will have to be changed in WP7 to sell better, don't you think?
    I do not see any difference from using Symbian in the short term.



  • Just do it then. If you see no future with Qt just stream your energy on products you believe in!
    Also, nothing in programming is a waste of time. Each new step in any framework is a step forward in your skills. If your skills depends on a framework than you are not a good programmer. Nothing personal, just my opinion



  • not related about what we said before



  • [quote]I do not see any difference from using Symbian in the short term.[/quote]
    Exactly. And because of it MS+Nokia union is the long term entity. CEO primary goal is to lead company in long term not in short term.



  • and yes, you are right, many companies and individuals WILL concentrate on other platforms, and Nokia will be left with no decent apps, just like now, which means no one will want to buy their phone



  • [quote author="dguimard" date="1297603147"]not related about what we said before[/quote]
    it was an answer to [quote]Now ,it ‘s seems that is a waste investment and we better have publish on appStore or android market.[/quote]



  • [quote author="ixSci" date="1297602709"]Do you really think you know better than Nokia CEO and key shareholders? [/quote]
    I honestly believe they have a very US-centric view born out of hiring US execs and directors to recover their US marketshare. In doing so, they will kill their global market which is actually worth quite a lot more. All those US software companies can't penetrate Europe and Asia. Now Nokia is also US software. Europeans will flock to US products. Game over.

    If you look at global marketshare, Nokia has been doing very well with the competition from Apple & Google. You'd expect them to be demolished by such large companies. However, four years later and they are still outpacing growth of Apple and outselling Google and they are just one manufacturer. Take US out of the equation and Nokia is (was) way ahead. 76% in Asia, about 50% elsewhere.

    I believe they don't understand their products whatsoever. If they did, they'd focus on something already.



  • good point Sacha



  • [quote]I honestly believe they have a very US-centric view [/quote]
    It seems so but whether an Apple strategy is different? If they bet on US market then it means something, don't you think?
    [quote]In doing so, they will kill their global market which is actually worth quite a lot more.[/quote]
    Could you please provide some digits? Your assert is a bit subjective



  • It means they will now lose European and Asian market which is worth many billions more.
    Sure, there are massive profits to be made in US as the average customer doles out $67/month for a smartphone plan but it will very soon crash as operators become dumb pipes. Apps like Skype, WhatsApp (available for everyone but Windows Phone) and Viber are making calls/text redundant. They've made me cancel my unlimited calls/text.
    The entire culture of plans in the US revolves around ridiculous monthly fees and 'free' handsets while eliminating pre-paid (really, it's not possible to get your smartphones pre-paid -- I've tried [CDMA or more expensive than plan, etc]). It's very unstable profits that only require a shift in culture or an operator that attempts to undercut the competition to break this whole thing down.
    Instead, in the future, people will hop on the increasing availability of cheap wireless data.
    This, combined with smartphones becoming more affordable and the general trend of dumbphones->smartphones increasing will lead to a global market that is far more profitable than the US. Even more so than it already is.

    Right now, US is a hot centre and Nokia is trying to take it on. However, in doing so, it's alienating all its customers (no Meego, no Qt) and it appears it will lose its dominance in the long-term.

    I'm sure they think they know what they are doing. And it's usually best to believe a company isn't making worse decisions than some armchair commentator. But in this case it looks quite dire to me.



  • xsacha, ok. I don't want to argue more. You know better than me I'll just step aside.



  • NONE



  • Qt will continue to be the development framework for Symbian and Nokia will use Symbian for further devices; continuing to develop strategic applications in Qt for Symbian platform and encouraging application developers to do the same. With 200 million users worldwide and Nokia planning to sell around 150 million more Symbian devices, Symbian still offers unparalleled geographical scale for developers.
    Extending the scope of Qt further will be our first MeeGo-related open source device, which we plan to ship later this year. Though our plans for MeeGo have been adapted in light of our planned partnership with Microsoft, that device will be compatible with applications developed within the Qt framework and so give Qt developers a further device to target.
    Check this to see what other developers have to say: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfWFvCJJaNs



  • [NOTE: merged this in from separate thread "New ecosystem", Volker]

    I was wondering how can Nokia and MS build an ecosystem with 1.5% WP market share. App developers consider a platform only if it has a considerable market share.A vast majority of 'Nokia developers' are either c++ or Java developers. I don't understand the Nok-MS thinking. Do they think that all of a sudden, these developers are going to learn .Net and write code for WP ? That is the impression I get from some of the discussions elsewhere. C++ developers are most likely to find other c++ jobs, either Qt (non-mobile, embedded) or others. Necessitas provide the Android path ( Thanks Bogdan, also to Nokia for lighthouse project ). J2me developers have S40 and other feature phones or they may move on to Android. Then Nokia will loose a vast majority of its current developerbase.

    It will take years for WP, however good, to gain atleast some marketshare. WP, however good it may be, still will be just one among the many. I'am just wondering how all this will end, for Nokia. I really feel this is an attempt to rescue MS at the cost of Nokia.



  • Just ran up to "this":http://www.mobile-review.com/articles/2011/birulki-115-en.shtml news. More info about the phone they gonna use in the unexpected merge.


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