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AI challenge...anybody?



  • @JKSH said in AI challenge...anybody?:

    @AnneRanch said in AI challenge...anybody?:

    Worse yet - if the post is not in proper grammar it gets promptly edited and corrected

    If people are only interested in fixing grammar and formatting, but not interested in answering the question, then the purpose of the forum is lost.

    No kidding...

    However, fixing grammar and formatting in itself is not a bad thing: A post that is easier to read is also easier to answer. It also benefits future users who might encounter the same problem and have the same question.

    Now we can get "serious" - assume that the primary purpose is to resolve the issue - for the original poster, right?

    Then if we grade how good grammar helped to solve the issue we are no longer concentrating on solution , but on assistance to the solver.

    There is a similar issue with another, often unpleasant issue to the first time poster - "include your code in quotation marks". Again - not exactly solving the problem , just making it easier to "cut and paste".

    Just to make sure - this is still "beer talk" - anybody who posts code , in quotation marks , will have to pay for next round...


  • Moderators

    @AnneRanch said:

    There is a similar issue with another, often unpleasant issue to the first time poster - "include your code in quotation marks". Again - not exactly solving the problem , just making it easier to "cut and paste".

    If the code posted is for the purpose of demonstrating a problem I doubt there are many people wanting to copy it.
    It's tough to read through sometimes a page long code in non monospace font and you can help two or more other people in the time it takes to get through that. Sure, a moderator could just edit that post, but it's a waste of time and that first time user is probably gonna do the same thing again. A friendly reminder that there's a code block feature on the forum is perfectly in order. It's not a "use code tags or else" type of message. We're here to help each other and to do that first step is to understand each other. Formatting posts, be it grammar, code blocks or just explaining your problem in detail, helps in that greatly.

    Grading a post on grammar or how well the person can explain their problem should not be a thing here IMO and I don't really care what SO or other platforms do. We're not here to copy them. Having said that it's hard to help if the post is "My code doesn't run. What's the problem?" and people that are just starting often can't express themselves better. Code is not the only thing programmers struggle with. Communication is another such common problem and why not try to help with that too. Rubber duck debugging is a real thing and if you can get the person to go through their code to explain what they are trying to do they often stumble upon the solution themselves and learn a lot in the process, avoiding future problems. Using code tags is the same - it just doesn't occur to some that there is such a thing so pointing them to it is a good thing.


  • Moderators

    @AnneRanch said in AI challenge...anybody?:

    Now we can get "serious" - assume that the primary purpose is to resolve the issue - for the original poster, right?

    Actually, there are 3 equally-important purposes for questions and answers in technical forum:

    1. Resolve the issue for the original poster
    2. Have the solution easily accessible to other users
    3. Encourage best practices in the original poster and in other users

    #1 is the most obvious purpose. However, #2 and #3 are needed too to sustain a high-quality forum, so we make sure these are not jeapordized in pursuit of #1.

    There is a similar issue with another, often unpleasant issue to the first time poster - "include your code in quotation marks". Again - not exactly solving the problem , just making it easier to "cut and paste".

    I understand that it's frustrating when you want a problem resolved but you are asked to go do something else instead.

    But please understand that it goes both ways: It is unpleasant for a solver to dig through poorly-formatted code. It is tiring, difficult, tedious, as @Pl45m4 said.

    So, when an asker formats code properly (and posts a minimal compilable example, and provides detailed descriptions, and posts error messages, and answers questions), the asker helps to achieve both #1 and #2 -- because all of these things make it easier and faster for solver(s) to produce a solution, and all of these things make it easier for other users to follow.

    Then if we grade how good grammar helped to solve the issue we are no longer concentrating on solution ,

    As @Chris-Kawa noted, we are not interested in teaching/fixing grammar in the Qt Forum (unless the text is incomprehensible).

    Many users here aren't native English speakers and many apologize for their "bad English"; we tell them that it's fine since we can understand them.

    Just to make sure - this is still "beer talk" - anybody who posts code , in quotation marks , will have to pay for next round...

    Sure. No code and no quotation marks here.

    What are your thoughts on what I wrote above?



  • @JKSH said in AI challenge...anybody?:

    @AnneRanch said in AI challenge...anybody?:

    Now we can get "serious" - assume that the primary purpose is to resolve the issue - for the original poster, right?

    Actually, there are 3 equally-important purposes for questions and answers in technical forum:

    1. Resolve the issue for the original poster
    2. Have the solution easily accessible to other users
    3. Encourage best practices in the original poster and in other users

    #1 is the most obvious purpose. However, #2 and #3 are needed too to sustain a high-quality forum, so we make sure these are not jeapordized in pursuit of #1.

    There is a similar issue with another, often unpleasant issue to the first time poster - "include your code in quotation marks". Again - not exactly solving the problem , just making it easier to "cut and paste".

    I understand that it's frustrating when you want a problem resolved but you are asked to go do something else instead.

    But please understand that it goes both ways: It is unpleasant for a solver to dig through poorly-formatted code. It is tiring, difficult, tedious, as @Pl45m4 said.

    So, when an asker formats code properly (and posts a minimal compilable example, and provides detailed descriptions, and posts error messages, and answers questions), the asker helps to achieve both #1 and #2 -- because all of these things make it easier and faster for solver(s) to produce a solution, and all of these things make it easier for other users to follow.

    Then if we grade how good grammar helped to solve the issue we are no longer concentrating on solution ,

    As @Chris-Kawa noted, we are not interested in teaching/fixing grammar in the Qt Forum (unless the text is incomprehensible).

    Many users here aren't native English speakers and many apologize for their "bad English"; we tell them that it's fine since we can understand them.

    Just to make sure - this is still "beer talk" - anybody who posts code , in quotation marks , will have to pay for next round...

    Sure. No code and no quotation marks here.

    What are your thoughts on what I wrote above?

    I'll have to pass on nay "thoughts" , I am currently fighting alligators called Ubuntu. No time to " lounge " ,


  • Moderators

    @AnneRanch said in AI challenge...anybody?:

    I'll have to pass on nay "thoughts" , I am currently fighting alligators called Ubuntu. No time to " lounge " ,

    This thread will still be around after you're done fighting alligators



  • @JKSH said in AI challenge...anybody?:

    @AnneRanch said in AI challenge...anybody?:

    I'll have to pass on nay "thoughts" , I am currently fighting alligators called Ubuntu. No time to " lounge " ,

    This thread will still be around after you're done fighting alligators

    No kidding...
    finally got Ubuntu 20.10 going and after instructing the ISO to "load updates" I just for the heck of it did "upgrade" to find out that I have 222 packages in need.

    Anyhow, this is not the place to bitch about Ubuntu.

    Also I did not intended to start discussion about how to post, however find it interesting discussion. Somehow I feel it would benefit to have a separate forum to openly preset stuff like that to the newcomers. I know there are stickies etc but if newcomer is aware of place where "how to communicate" is discussed it could be beneficial to all.

    Putting people on the spot for bad communication is not a great idea.

    Of course the "you can lead the horse to the water but you cannot make him drink " applies here .

    And for code writing geeks - here is a corollary of the above
    " real engineers don't read manuals ".

    Cheers



  • @AnneRanch said in AI challenge...anybody?:

    " real engineers don't read manuals "

    <sigh>
    The internet really is a stupid place.


  • Lifetime Qt Champion

    @fcarney But that's true actually as you can see in this forum :-) People often don't bother to read documentation before asking questions.


  • Moderators

    @AnneRanch said in AI challenge...anybody?:

    I did not intended to start discussion about how to post, however find it interesting discussion.

    The ideas and concepts behind "how to run a good forum" are interesting and complex indeed.

    Somehow I feel it would benefit to have a separate forum to openly preset stuff like that to the newcomers.

    By "Preset", do you mean like a "template" where users fill in labelled sections? That's a pretty good idea.

    Some projects like Inkscape do this. When you start to post a new bug report, you get a template to fill out (https://gitlab.com/inkscape/inkscape/-/issues ):

    <!-- Please report new issues at https://inkscape.org/report; this tracker is for staff-confirmed issues only.
         See our full bug reporting guidelines at https://inkscape.org/contribute/report-bugs/ -->
    
    #### Steps to reproduce:
    <!-- Describe what you did (step-by-step) so we can reproduce: -->
    
    - open Inkscape
    - ...
    
    #### What happened?
    
    ...
    
    #### What should have happened?
    
    ...
    
    #### Inkscape Version and Operating System:
    
    - Inkscape Version: ... <!-- (run inkscape -V or copy from Help → About Inkscape, top right) -->
    - Operating System: ...
    - Operating System version: ...
    
    <!-- Example file:
    Attach a sample file (or files) highlighting the issue, if appropriate. -->
    

    I know there are stickies etc but if newcomer is aware of place where "how to communicate" is discussed it could be beneficial to all.

    Plenty has already been discussed already (for example, "How to Ask Good Coding Questions That Get Great Answers": https://zellwk.com/blog/asking-questions/ )

    Unfortunately, many people don't read, as @jsulm mentioned.

    Putting people on the spot for bad communication is not a great idea.

    How would you handle a situation where someone asks you for help but doesn't provide details when requested and doesn't put effort into trying to solve the problem?

    Of course the "you can lead the horse to the water but you cannot make him drink " applies here .

    Definitely.

    I also strive to "teach a man to fish" instead of "give a man a fish". There is no point in me writing a solution if the asker just copies and pastes the code without understanding it.



  • @JKSH said in AI challenge...anybody?:

    @AnneRanch said in AI challenge...anybody?:

    I did not intended to start discussion about how to post, however find it interesting discussion.

    The ideas and concepts behind "how to run a good forum" are interesting and complex indeed.

    Somehow I feel it would benefit to have a separate forum to openly preset stuff like that to the newcomers.

    By "Preset", do you mean like a "template" where users fill in labelled sections? That's a pretty good idea.

    Some projects like Inkscape do this. When you start to post a new bug report, you get a template to fill out (https://gitlab.com/inkscape/inkscape/-/issues ):

    <!-- Please report new issues at https://inkscape.org/report; this tracker is for staff-confirmed issues only.
         See our full bug reporting guidelines at https://inkscape.org/contribute/report-bugs/ -->
    
    #### Steps to reproduce:
    <!-- Describe what you did (step-by-step) so we can reproduce: -->
    
    - open Inkscape
    - ...
    
    #### What happened?
    
    ...
    
    #### What should have happened?
    
    ...
    
    #### Inkscape Version and Operating System:
    
    - Inkscape Version: ... <!-- (run inkscape -V or copy from Help → About Inkscape, top right) -->
    - Operating System: ...
    - Operating System version: ...
    
    <!-- Example file:
    Attach a sample file (or files) highlighting the issue, if appropriate. -->
    

    I know there are stickies etc but if newcomer is aware of place where "how to communicate" is discussed it could be beneficial to all.

    Plenty has already been discussed already (for example, "How to Ask Good Coding Questions That Get Great Answers": https://zellwk.com/blog/asking-questions/ )

    Unfortunately, many people don't read, as @jsulm mentioned.

    Putting people on the spot for bad communication is not a great idea.

    How would you handle a situation where someone asks you for help but doesn't provide details when requested and doesn't put effort into trying to solve the problem?

    Of course the "you can lead the horse to the water but you cannot make him drink " applies here .

    Definitely.

    I also strive to "teach a man to fish" instead of "give a man a fish". There is no point in me writing a solution if the asker just copies and pastes the code without understanding it.

    I have to disagree here- going back to

    1. Resolve the issue for the original poster

    teaching man to fish ON INTERNET is in my opinion, and I am opinionated, is NOT what education is about.

    Granted - you can educate, but in bits and pieces.

    This is not just opinion, but lifelong experience - I grew up with local library as a primary resource to educate myself above what schooling gave me.
    Local library was later replaced with university library. Mr Al Gore invention opened yet another library and it is still up to the horse to drink.

    Yes, you can teach a man to fish... then he spends hours on the boat , drinking beer and eating potato chips....


  • Moderators

    @AnneRanch said in AI challenge...anybody?:

    I have to disagree here- going back to

    1. Resolve the issue for the original poster

    I post on this forum to help people learn, not to do their homework for them.

    For people who want a tailored solution but don't have time/energy to understand it properly, what they need is a hired consultant instead of a community forum.

    teaching man to fish ON INTERNET is in my opinion, and I am opinionated, is NOT what education is about.

    Granted - you can educate, but in bits and pieces.

    This is not just opinion, but lifelong experience - I grew up with local library as a primary resource to educate myself above what schooling gave me.
    Local library was later replaced with university library.

    It sounds like you are agreeing with me...? When you learn from the library, you are teaching yourself to fish.

    This forum is like a library for programmers. A solver/answerer is like a librarian and teacher combined -- they point askers to the relevant shelves, plus they also discuss the books' contents with the askers.

    Yes, you can teach a man to fish... then he spends hours on the boat , drinking beer and eating potato chips....

    Spending hours on the boat == gaining real-life fishing experience that can't be gained from the classroom.



  • Unfortunately too many posters on here are 1) looking for someone to do their homework or 2) being paid by some pointey haired boss to attempt work that is way beyond their abilities so they look online for someone to save their butt (pro-bono). I spend my time trying to figure out whether the post falls into either of those categories before commenting. Although to be honest I do have to frequently fight the urge to give them crap if I feel either of the above may be true.



  • @Kent-Dorfman

    You forgot about category 3:
    People, who have absolutely no clue what they are doing, but trying to win a marathon before they can even walk :)



  • @Pl45m4 said in AI challenge...anybody?:

    You forgot about category 3:

    I thought about that after post but didn't want to edit...nothing like "I want to build an enterprise distributed cloud service. Someone tell me how."


  • Moderators

    @Kent-Dorfman @Pl45m4 I think you're being a bit too harsh. When I was young I had a brilliant idea of writing my own game engine, completely oblivious to the scope of such undertaking. I failed miserably, tried again, then again and again, each time getting a little further. Over the years I did a lot of stupid mistakes, asked some extremely noobish questions and took more than I could chew more times than I can remember. After over two decades I'm writing a professional AAA game engine and teach others how to do that. You have to start somewhere and not be afraid to ask silly questions, otherwise how would you grow?

    Sure, people sometimes stumble in the dark, seek any help they can and ask basic questions. That's fine. IMO "I want to build a rocket and fly it to Mars. How do I do that?" is a perfectly fine question and it's perfectly fine to answer with something like - "First of all it's gonna take you 30 years and you can't do that alone. You need a team and here's why".

    People don't know how much they don't know and if you see someone clearly not knowing what they are doing try to guide them. It's even more important in that case not to just directly answer their question, because often they don't even know what they are doing and just try random stuff. Sure if it's a specific problem that seems valid, a straight answer is best and can be reused by others, but if the problem is "Here's 3 pages of code. What's wrong with it?" the person clearly is lost and you need to approach them as such - ask what they are trying to do, guide them, try to lead them to ask the right questions and then answer them.

    Sure, it takes a lot more time and patience to do that than to just give straight answer or roast the person for how noobish they are, and you're not getting paid for that, but that's what this forum is about - giving something back to the community, be it time, patience or nerves. It's like donating blood - If you're not up to it, that's fine too. It's just something a lot of people here like to do and, from my experience, it helps you grow on your own, just in another way - communication is also a skill and, like with anything else, you improve by practicing.



  • @Chris-Kawa said in AI challenge...anybody?:

    Sure, it takes a lot more time and patience to do that

    You are completely right, but I was thinking about these "special" cases, where the OP has no clue, but very unrealistic wishes and wants it to be finished preferably tomorrow :)

    IIRC, a few month ago there was this guy, trying to create a complete new bootable Operating System (using a Qt GUI) from scratch...
    It's not impossible but a very very tough job, if you have no idea and no specialists with more experience around you.
    => "Build a rocket and fly to mars"


  • Moderators

    @Pl45m4 said:

    a few month ago there was this guy, trying to create a complete new bootable Operating System (using a Qt GUI) from scratch...

    To be perfectly honest when I was a kid and learned Pascal for the first time I tried to write my operating system too :) Of course I ended up with a window that draws buttons, but hey, I had no internet back then and there was no one around to tell me this is not what an operating system is, so I was very proud of myself while the sweet ignorance lasted :)

    That being said - sure, there are entitled jerks out there. Not much can be done about that, but I say let's try to focus on the good. There's so much bad happening that it would be kinda nice to balance it out a little.



  • Eh...Once upon a time hackers were respected, well paid, and seen in certain cirles as artists. Business interests have done a pretty good job of propagating the very unrealistic idea that it's all assembly line work and that you can teach anybody to program. So yeah, I'm a bit defensive about what my vocation has become.

    Real Programmers Dont Use PASCAL -- Datamation, July 1983


  • Moderators

    @Kent-Dorfman said:

    Once upon a time hackers were respected, well paid, and seen in certain cirles as artists.

    My impression was that it is still the case. It's maybe not as prominent in media, but still.

    Business interests have done a pretty good job of propagating the very unrealistic idea that it's all assembly line work and that you can teach anybody to program. So yeah, I'm a bit defensive about what my vocation has become.

    I feel you. I guess the industry grew so fast that it kinda became obvious that we can produce new computers a lot faster than new field experts, so yeah, the entry standard is getting lower and lower and that trend is gonna continue. Yet another reason to try and help people so the curve is not dropping as fast. Except for maybe the top guys we're all gonna be replaced with AI one day. Hopefully not before I retire though :)

    Real Programmers Dont Use PASCAL -- Datamation, July 1983

    Ah yes, the good old "real programmers" :) I never met a programmer who admitted they were one of the fake ones. It's somehow always those other people :P
    Pascal was for me a pretty nice little language to learn on my own at home and its incarnation Delphi was similarly nice way to step up into visual ui programming. Sure, they are not up there with the big boys and their time has mostly passed, but it was simple, formal, to the point. Not very powerful or particularly fast but easy to start with and focus on data structures and algorithms when you are at the level that pointer is a complex concept :)



  • I had college profs who called Modula-2 object oriented...LOL First post-college job was DOS/modula-2 coding. previous programmer had them heavily vested in that generation of MS-basic...so severe memory limitations on data structures and not really any data structure abstractions anyway.



  • @Kent-Dorfman Was he teaching object oriented using modula, or was he confused about what modula was out of the box? I have talked to a few people who use languages without object oriented support, but program them in the object oriented style. open65241 is one such project that programs C in oop style.


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